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Originally posted by Proper KnobI also said you have to do it on God's terms not mans.
You have moved the goalposts Kelly. Your initial claim was that to sense God someone had to do it 'with a whole heart', now you've added the caveat that it has to be on God's terms 'through His Son'. As LemonJello has pointed out to knightmeister numerous times on this thread, what you are doing is question begging.Begging the question (or [i explicitly in the premise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
He is after all, God.
Kelly
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Originally posted by VoidSpiritO come on. There is not much antagonistic in Greg Koukl's style. He is quite approachable, friendly, and reasonable. That is unless you are antagonized by some clear and reasonable thinking.
scarecrow antagonist.
One Minute on "Intolerance" Greg Koukl
Originally posted by Proper KnobIt's not the "rest of the world's religious folk" who need to re-tune it's only non- Christians. Having said this I do accept that many non Christians are much closer to Christ than they realize. For example , I would say that Ghandi (non Christian) was more tuned into God than someone like Pat Robertson (Christian)
We'll give it a go.
So then, how do you know that you are tuned into the correct frequency and it's the rest of worlds religious folk (all 4 billion of them give or take a few) who need to re-tune?
Much depends on whether you want to discuss the intellectual arguments that separate out Christianity or Spirituality in general.
I think you probably want to know why Christianity stands out for me as the Truth?
One immediate idea that I would share is that Christianity is the only religion where God actively enters into suffering , death and the plight of mankind in an authentic way. In Christ God gets his hands dirty.
Originally posted by knightmeisterI have a disagree with you big time here.
It's not the "rest of the world's religious folk" who need to re-tune it's only non- Christians. Having said this I do accept that many non Christians are much closer to Christ than they realize. For example , I would say that Ghandi (non Christian) was more tuned into God than someone like Pat Robertson (Christian)
Much depends on whether you want ...[text shortened]... , death and the plight of mankind in an authentic way. In Christ God gets his hands dirty.
Tuning into God?
Either you are in Christ or you are not, being a 'good' person is like saying that
this murder isn't as bad as that one, because -> who cares! Since both are
murderers the degree is meaningless as one should be acceptable. If we are
judging by human standards I'd agree with you that I'd take Ghandi over some
Christians I know, but that does not mean anything! Only a cleaned sinner is
close to God, and the only way anyone gets clean is in Christ. Without God's
righteousness you are stuck with your own, and at our best we are sinners
facing a Holy God.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayI agree to an extent brother , but do you not think being "in Christ" is a Spiritual thing rather than an intellectual agreement with a certain doctrine? I believe there are those outside of the Church who will take a place in heaven in the place of some within.
I have a disagree with you big time here.
Tuning into God?
Either you are in Christ or you are not, being a 'good' person is like saying that
this murder isn't as bad as that one, because -> who cares! Since both are
murderers the degree is meaningless as one should be acceptable. If we are
judging by human standards I'd agree with you that I'd take Gh ...[text shortened]... ess you are stuck with your own, and at our best we are sinners
facing a Holy God.
Kelly
After all , if we accept that there are goats amongst the sheep , why can there not be sheep amongst the goats?
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Originally posted by knightmeisterIf you read about the sheep and goats you'll see they do not mix when Jesus
I agree to an extent brother , but do you not think being "in Christ" is a Spiritual thing rather than an intellectual agreement with a certain doctrine? I believe there are those outside of the Church who will take a place in heaven in the place of some within.
After all , if we accept that there are goats amongst the sheep , why can there not be sheep amongst the goats?
separates them, one group He knew the other no. I'd also point out that one
passage in scripture you see people telling Jesus all the things they did in His
name which Jesus does not deny, He stills tell them depart from Him He did
not know them. The point being it is a relationship with Jesus as Lord that
matters here, you cannot deny Him and have Jesus be your Lord, you cannot
reject Him and have Him be your Lord, He is or isn't, you are following Him or
your not.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayThe expression 'relationship with Jesus", does not exist in the Bible. Can you explain what that means?
.. a relationship with Jesus as Lord that matters here,
I know that Christ explained in the 'sheep and goats' illustration exactly who is worthy of eternal life with him and its those who see 'him' in distress and helps 'him'.
Is that what you are referring to as a relationship with Jesus ? Is it helping others in distress as Christ described in Matt 25?
Originally posted by jaywillthe point of calling him a scarecrow antagonist is to illustrate his style. he is framing arguments against christianity, appropriately named "bad" arguments and proceeding to refute those. his refutations don't stand up to the more reasoned arguments that usually come up in discussions.
O come on. There is not much antagonistic in Greg Koukl's style. He is quite approachable, friendly, and reasonable. That is unless you are antagonized by some clear and reasonable thinking.
One Minute on [b]"Intolerance" Greg Koukl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSMcheh4KI4[/b]
as an example, about 25 minutes in, he begins to discuss the problem of "evil and suffering"
note how he framed the problem as "evil" and suffering. that's the setup of his scarecrow argument to follow. which is the flawed reasoning: if god exists he would get rid of the evil and suffering. since evil exists, therefore god must not exist.
after setting up this scarecrow, he then proceeds to dismantle it with his cleverly prepared refutation.
that's the pattern of his presentation. set up the scarecrow than dismantle it with some attempts at humor thrown into the mix. his imaginary opponents (presumably atheists who come up with these badly reasoned arguments) are complete imbeciles who are unable to match his clever refutations tit for tat.
Originally posted by Rajk999Do you know Jesus, does He know you?
The expression 'relationship with Jesus", does not exist in the Bible. Can you explain what that means?
I know that Christ explained in the 'sheep and goats' illustration exactly who is worthy of eternal life with him and its those who see 'him' in distress and helps 'him'.
Is that what you are referring to as a relationship with Jesus ? Is it helping others in distress as Christ described in Matt 25?
If you hear the words depart from me I never knew you, would that be justified in your case?
Kelly
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Originally posted by KellyJayA simple answer ! Is that so difficult?
Do you know Jesus, does He know you?
If you hear the words depart from me I never knew you, would that be justified in your case?
Kelly
Not to worry.
Edit .. All you Christians these days try to claim you are saved. You like to ask others if they are saved. Yet you dont have a clue about the teachings of Christ.
Note that I have not asked you anything about yourself. You on the other hand want to claim that Christ will tell me he never knew me. This is not about me and you .. IDIOT ! Its about a statement you made which does not exist in the bible but yet you say its so important.
Originally posted by Rajk999The expression 'relationship with Jesus", does not exist in the Bible. Can you explain what that means?
The expression 'relationship with Jesus", does not exist in the Bible. Can you explain what that means?
I know that Christ explained in the 'sheep and goats' illustration exactly who is worthy of eternal life with him and its those who see 'him' in distress and helps 'him'.
Is that what you are referring to as a relationship with Jesus ? Is it helping others in distress as Christ described in Matt 25?
-----------rajk99------------------------
Jesus said that his sheep will know his voice and he knows them. This implies at the very least that he will talk to his followers and guide them. He also said that he and his father would make their home with a follower.
Any idea what he's talking about here? Sounds like a relationship with Him.
Originally posted by Rajk999This is not about me and you .. IDIOT !
A simple answer ! Is that so difficult?
Not to worry.
Edit .. All you Christians these days try to claim you are saved. You like to ask others if they are saved. Yet you dont have a clue about the teachings of Christ.
Note that I have not asked you anything about yourself. You on the other hand want to claim that Christ will tell me he never knew me. ...[text shortened]... s about a statement you made which does not exist in the bible but yet you say its so important.
---------rajk99------------------------------
I'm not passing judgement or anything on you Rajk but when you come out with these statements you just don't sound Christ -like at all. I know we are all human and prone to errors but sometimes you just sound so angry and judgmental. I don't understand. If you are close to Christ then why the anger and judgement?
Peace to your heart in the Holy Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Originally posted by Rajk999Oh good grief, I have never, ever heard of a Christian having to ask what a relationship with Jesus means.
The expression 'relationship with Jesus", does not exist in the Bible. Can you explain what that means?
I know that Christ explained in the 'sheep and goats' illustration exactly who is worthy of eternal life with him and its those who see 'him' in distress and helps 'him'.
Is that what you are referring to as a relationship with Jesus ? Is it helping others in distress as Christ described in Matt 25?
Either you're Christian, or you're not. In the pile of "not" I put people who apparently follow Jesus through fear, instead of love.
Right now, I'm thinking you can go over there and stand with the JW's. They're the only ones I ever hear say baloney like "If it isn't in the Bible then it's not true". You're not an automaton, use your brain.
Originally posted by Rajk999If you don't understand that God wants you to know Him, I'm thinking you have
A simple answer ! Is that so difficult?
Not to worry.
Edit .. All you Christians these days try to claim you are saved. You like to ask others if they are saved. Yet you dont have a clue about the teachings of Christ.
Note that I have not asked you anything about yourself. You on the other hand want to claim that Christ will tell me he never knew me. ...[text shortened]... s about a statement you made which does not exist in the bible but yet you say its so important.
something else in mind. I've not given you information about me, I'm pointing
you to Jesus Christ, you either know Him or you don't. Since you seem to think
that knowing God through Jesus Christ isn't important, than you can go about
your way and justify yourself anyway you want.
Kelly