14 Oct 15
Originally posted by Rajk999"Is this the reason why many Christians claim they will not have to account for sin .. because it is all on Christ?"
I wonder if you see the flaw in that.
Basically what that says is if:
- you follow Christ commandments and you are considered a sheep [per Matt 25}, you are giving Jesus the credit and that is correct.
- you fail to follow Christ commandments and/or continue on with sin, Christ will consider you a goat BUT you seem to be blaming Christ for your sin. ...[text shortened]... why many Christians claim they will not have to account for sin .. because it is all on Christ?
Actually Jesus became sin for us so we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
God had a plan that He could take sinners and show them mercy to those that believed
in Jesus so they would receive eternal life.
1 Timothy 1:16
But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
So tell me again how those without Jesus get saved?
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Originally posted by KellyJayYour note is better than what Rajk999 presents. And we Christians should speak in faith. This post is addressed to you but is a general comment for all readers.
"Is this the reason why many Christians claim they will not have to account for sin .. because it is all on Christ?"
Actually Jesus became sin for us so we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
God had a plan that He could tak ...[text shortened]... believe in him and receive eternal life.
So tell me again how those without Jesus get saved?
IE. "I HAVE been born again. I HAVE Jesus living in me. I have eternal life."
We should SPEAK the facts always for a firm foundation. We should not speak such doubting things of unbelief that Rajk999 wants to teach.
This note in speaking the divine facts is useful IMO. Here the speaker was talking about the boards of the tabernacle being made of acacia wood overlaid with gold as a picture of regenerated believers with God united with them for the house of God.
When you hear about acacia wood overlaid with gold, you may find it difficult to believe that, as a Christian, you are such a board. You may be tempted to say that you are still weak. If you think you are weak and then proclaim that you are weak, you will in fact be weak. In experience what you are will be according to what you think and say. Thus, it is crucial for you to change your thinking. No longer should you consider yourself a jellyfish. In faith you should proclaim that you are a board of acacia wood overlaid with gold. Do not speak according to what you are by nature, but speak according to your faith. If you say that you are weak, you will be weak. If you say that you have no way to handle a particular situation, you will not have a way to handle it. But if you declare that you are strong and have the best way to handle a difficult situation, you will be strong and you will also have the way.
This post is about speaking in faith and not teaching and saying things dumbed down because we are too impressed with our failures or those of other Christians.
We ARE born again as Christians.
We ARE regenerated as Christians.
This is what the NT teaches and this is what we certainly should stand in faith an proclaim with praise and thanksgiving.
To speak in this way is to fan into flame the gift of God we have received. Recently we have seen in the Life-study of 1 Corinthians that all believers in Christ have received the initial gifts, the gifts of the divine life and the Holy Spirit. Now we must fan these gifts into flame, realizing that God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but a spirit of power, of love, and of a sober mind. We must see what we are through regeneration and then declare this. Do not look at yourself, but stand on the Lord’s word and act on it. When the Lord Jesus told Peter to step out of the boat and come to Him on the water, Peter did so (Matt. 14:28-29). He walked on the water according to the word of Christ. But when he looked at the environment, his faith disappeared. We should be like Peter in the first matter, but not in the second. According to the Lord’s word, we should say in faith that we are boards of acacia wood overlaid with gold.
Acacia wood signifies the regenerated and uplifted humanity of the new creation in Christ as the basic material, strong for standing. Acacia wood is thus the basic material of the standing boards. The ability to stand does not depend on the gold; it depends on the acacia wood. Although gold is precious, it is too soft to have the necessary standing power. As boards, our standing power is the acacia wood. We stand because we have a regenerated and uplifted humanity. However, we do not express this humanity. Instead, we express divinity. Thus, gold is the church’s expression. The fact that the acacia wood was overlaid with gold signifies that the divine nature of Christ has become one with our human nature to be the expression of God.
[From The Life Study of Exodus by Witness Lee, Msg. 97, pg 1134, LSM ] my bolding.
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n
14 Oct 15
Originally posted by divegeesterYou are saying what I have been saying here all along but in different words. Throwing the word legalism around is all you people seem good at. You do not care to disucss doctrine because your chosen doctrine is at odds with Christ.
Your legalism clouds your discernment. Whether or not someone has some important facts "screwed up in their head", or not, has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the ability of God To dispense grace. The Lord looks at the heart.
God looks at a mans heart and that means his ability to obey and follow his new life in Christ. God will dispense grace to those he choses to dispense grace to. You and sonship and others claim that a man is saved when he accepts Christ with his mouth.
Mouth and heart are two different things in the Bible.
Mouth alone = death
Heart = Life
14 Oct 15
Originally posted by sonshipWell if you continue to use a bogus translation that conflicts with both the KJV and the original Greek manuscripts then I respectfully decline to respond. Here you do it again:
[b]
In the meantime chew on these 3 facts straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ
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1. That the regeneration takes place when he returns
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Rajk999 is referring to Matt. 19:28 ...[text shortened]... [/b]
2.) He refers not to the second coming of Christ but the living and abiding word of God.[/b]
The KJV says
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat 19:28)
Your bogus translation says
"And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the RESTORATION, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matt. 19:28)
Your quote from Peter inserts the word 'regeneration' when there is no such word in the Greek manuscripts. So I will decline to discuss when we have no common translation.
14 Oct 15
Originally posted by Rajk999I got news for you, every English word you used will not be found the Greek either.
Well if you continue to use a bogus translation that conflicts with both the KJV and the original Greek manuscripts then I respectfully decline to respond. Here you do it again:
[b]The KJV says
[i]And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne o ...[text shortened]... word in the Greek manuscripts. So I will decline to discuss when we have no common translation.[/b]
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14 Oct 15
Originally posted by Rajk999Okay, Rajk999's latest inbetween his "bad news" "gospel" that no Christians are regenerated or have eternal life.
He doesn't like my favorite study Bible The Recovery Version.
www.recoveryversion.org.
I'm not hung up on one English translation of the Bible.
The RcV is excellent.
I can just as easily debunk most of Rjk999's heretical concepts with Darby, KVJ, 1901 American Standard, New American Standard and probably other good English versions.
Greek New Testament scholar of unquestionable renown F. F. Bruce wrote the following about the Recovery Version:
I have read with interest the copies of translations of New Testament epistles in the Recovery Version. This is a version which I had not previously met. The version seems to me to be an accurate and fairly literal rendering of the Greek. The user of this version will get a precise impression of what the sacred text says.
With all good wishes:
Yours Sincerely,
F.F. Bruce
Enough said for now. Further comments - http://www.recoveryversion.org/comments.html
The KJV says
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat 19:28)
I ALREADY conceded that the word in that passage COULD conceivably be translated regeneration. And in fact it IS so in the RcV in the book of Titus - the only other place it appears in the Greek NT.
I don't like to endlessly repeat to Rajk999.
So how have other versions rendered the word there in Matthew 19:28?
New International Version
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne,
New Living Translation
Jesus replied, "I assure you that when the world is made new and the Son of Man sits upon his glorious throne,
English Standard Version
Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones,
Berean Study Bible
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also
Berean Literal Bible
And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man shall sit down upon His throne of glory,
International Standard Version
Jesus told them, "I tell all of you with certainty, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne in the renewed creation,
New American Standard 1977
And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne,
World English Bible
Jesus said to them, "Most certainly I tell you that you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on the throne of his glory, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Young's Literal Translation
And Jesus said to them, 'Verily I say to you, that ye who did follow me, in the regeneration, when the Son of Man may sit upon a throne of his glory, shall sit -- ye also -- upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel;
Teaching that this passage disproves Christians are born-again [regenerated] all during the church age is a lie.
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14 Oct 15
4 edits
Rajk999 says no Christians have been regenerated.
The first disciples of Jesus were probably regenerated in John 20:22,23 after His resurrection when He did the symbolic act of breathing into them.
"Then said Jesus to them again. Peace be to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.
And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit. " (John 20:21,22)
In the basic book on Christian doctrine, Romans Paul teaches the Christians audience has received the Holy Spirit in regeneration.
"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God." (Rom. 8:16)
It is therefore a error at best and a LIE at worst for Rajk999 to say no Christians have been regenerated.
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14 Oct 15
2 edits
In the same letter Paul says no one who does not have the Spirit of Christ is His. This means no one not born of the Holy Spirit (regenerated) belongs to Christ in this "organic" way of life union.
"But you are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not of Him." (Rom. 8:9)
To be "of Christ" is certainly to be a Christian.
And all such have the Spirit of God who is the Spirit of Christ in order to belong to Christ.
Rajk999 says no one has been regenerated. But Paul tells the Galatian Christians that they received the Spirit of God through faith.
"O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, ... This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith?" (Gal. 3:1,2)
They received regeneration through the hearing of faith.
They were born again because they responded in faith to the gospel.
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14 Oct 15
2 edits
Rajk999 opposes the New Testament when teaching no Christians before Christ's RESTORATION or RENEWAL or even REGENERATION in the coming age, have been regenerated.
Also in Galatians Paul teaches that the Christians BEGAN by the Spirit through faith and should CONTINUE by the Spirit through faith:
"Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh ?" (Gal. 3:3)
How the Christian life BEGINS in Rajk999's theology is a bit ambiguous to me. But he seems to think the Christian life is PERFECTED by the work of the religious flesh.
Paul says that this is foolish. Having begun by receiving Christ as the Spirit it is FOOLISH to think we could go on to be perfected by works of the flesh.
We are perfected by FAITH allowing Christ to make His home in every and all chambers of our psychological heart.
" That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith." (Eph, 3:17)
So Paul says AS we first received Christ Jesus by faith we should CONTINUE to WALK in Christ Jesus.
" As therefore you have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in Him." (Col. 2:6)
The topic is "Enemies of the cross of Christ". The truth is that after our regeneration we must let the crossing out of the old way of life work that we may be weaned from it to walk in newness of life - to walk in Christ.
Denying that Christians are regenerated until the millennial kingdom is hostile to this NT revelation. I won't submit to it for a second.
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The RESTORATION or RENEWAL or REGENERATION spoken of in Matthew 19:28 is indicated in many Old Testament prophecies. Here are some:
Psa. 2:6, 8-9; Isaiah 2:2-5; 11:1-10; 65:20-25; 30:26; Zech. 8:20-23; Psalm 72:1-17; Isa. 4:2-6; 9:7; 12:1-5; 16:5; 32:1-2; 40:9-11; 61:4-9; Zech 14:16-21
All these refer to that time following the Lord sitting on the throne of His glory in Jerusalem during the millennial kingdom.
Not one of these prophecies prove that all during the church age before, men not are not [edited] regenerated through being born again.
Rajk999's horrendous error is to use this passage to try to prove that there is regeneration of the human spirit during the preceding age of the church preaching the gospel.
Matthew 19:28 - "And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the restoration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
However, the co-kings who reign with Christ are regenerated people who "loved not their soul-life even unto death" (Rev. 12:11)
This means that like Paul they counted all things loss, even up to their physical death if need be. They ALLOWED the cross of Christ to strip them of all inferior works of the flesh. They lived Christ and overcame.
For this they will be rewarded to reign with Christ as co-kings. It includes those physically martyred. It also includes those who were friendly to "the cross of Christ" .
" And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying,
Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul life even unto death." (Rev. 12:10,11)
1.) The overcomers STAND on the redemption of the blood of Christ.
2.) The overcomers STAND on the FACTS of the divine promises to claim them as their experience and testimony.
3.) The overcomers STAND on allowing love of Christ to cross out their soul life, They are friendly to "the cross of Christ".
Originally posted by checkbaiterI love posts like these. These are the kinds of posts that represent the proof that the end times is upon us. Even though you retract it.. bear in mind that the spoken word cannot be taken back. You can edit it out but I read it and I am very happy that you are so foolishly confident in your false doctrines.
Retracted
Your unedited post was along the lines that I have a spirit that is contrary to the Holy Spirit because in your opinion what sonship writes is the word of God and seeing that I oppose sonships doctrine then there must be some kind of evil spirit in me.
There must be just a handful of people who post here [I would say about 4 or 5] who try their best to repeat the doctrine of Christ the way Christ said it .. I am one of those people. You on the other hand has plainly stated
- that Christ commandments does not apply to you,
- that your sins would not be held against you,
- that not even God can take away your eternal life
. and other unChristlike, unbiblical doctrines that I wont bother to mention.
Satan and his disciples had similar doctrines like yourself, hence their fall from grace.
14 Oct 15
Originally posted by Rajk999'Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth.'
...You can edit it out but I read it and I am very happy that you are so foolishly confident in your false doctrines.
Your unedited post was along the lines that I have a spirit that is contrary to the Holy Spirit because in your opinion what sonship writes is the word of God and seeing that I oppose sonships doctrine then there must be some kind of evil s ...[text shortened]... ention.
Satan and his disciples had similar doctrines like yourself, hence their fall from grace.
(Proverbs 24:17):
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeRather this is the one that is more applicable :
'Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth.'
(Proverbs 24:17):
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. (Mat 5:10-12)
A certain group of Christians have been condemning me for a while now [at least 10 years], because I show them where Christ and the Apostles spoke of the importance of the righteousness in the life of the Christian. These teachings run contrary to theirs. Righteousness is a bad word among this group.
Christ said to rejoice and be exceeding glad !! That is all Im doing 🙂