12 Oct 15
Originally posted by yoctobyteFirst let me say that I am sorry to hear of your loss and I hope that you are strong [by Gods grace] to carry on happily despite everything. Next I don't know what labels like 'legalism' mean to be honest, but Im sure that I understand the teachings of Christ and I follow His teachings as best as I can. It is a defeated Christian that says things like "Im a sinner and I cannot follow Christ", that Christian is defeated by and has given in, to the ways of the flesh. Whether or not I sin is between me and God, nobody else that is why I dont answer the personal questions you ask.
To be honest with you, seems like a lot of stuff to digest, and really don't want to address points. To summarize, I can only tell you my position overall and it is this...
There needs to be grace, you seem to me to come from the place of legalism and have the need to be right. I don't mean this as if to criticize it's how I see it. I can't put my f ...[text shortened]... they see a thing clearer than you do. Christians can speak into each other's lives, even here.
As for the part of me not having 'joy'.,, again I do not understand how it is that Christians claim [you re not the first to say that], they know that about me. Clearly you think because I condemn sin [the same way the Apostles do] that my life is boring or without 'joy'. Well I can guarantee you that if you knew the absolutely fantastic life that God has blessed me with you might be envious.
Here is the reason why I get so much joy in what I do. Just about every time that Christians post some reference, in the same chapter or the next, there is evidence that their interpretation is incorrect.
You say this passage
Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
It's a promise, sometimes we think we are right about things and we are really wrong, God has grace for us while we get it right.
Paul also says a few verses down:
Php 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
The Christian has to be sincere and without offence. Throughout the teachings of all the Apostles the story is the same. .. you accept Christ, Gods Grace is there to help the believer along, Gods forgiveness is also available. But the story does not end there. There is a limit to Gods grace and mercy an forgiveness, as is clearly stated all over the Apostles writings. I hope you dont ignore it.
12 Oct 15
Originally posted by Rajk999I agree and don't ignore, this we agree on.
First let me say that I am sorry to hear of your loss and I hope that you are strong [by Gods grace] to carry on happily despite everything. Next I don't know what labels like 'legalism' mean to be honest, but Im sure that I understand the teachings of Christ and I follow His teachings as best as I can. It is a defeated Christian that says things like "Im ...[text shortened]... an forgiveness, as is clearly stated all over the Apostles writings. I hope you dont ignore it.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
What then are "enemies of the cross of Christ" ?
What does Paul mean by this phrase:
" Be imitators of me, brothers, and observe those who thus walk even as you have us as a pattern.
For many walk, of whom I have told you often and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ.
Whose end is destruction, whose god is their stomach, and whose glory is their shame, who set their minds on earthly things." (Phiippians 3:17-19)
When a Christians denies himself in order to enjoy Christ instead who lives in him. He is allowing the cross of Christ to cancel his old way of life out in favor of enjoying a new life in God.
An enemy of the cross of Christ is one who will not deny himself in order to live Christ.
If an unbeliever denies himself he has nothing left.
The born again Christian has leftovers if he denies himself - Jesus living in Him.
An enemy of the cross of Christ doesn't like the work of the termination of the cross upon the self which ushers him into the enjoyment of Christ.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Paul and his co-workers laboring for the churches were examples to follow. They were not afraid to deny themselves in order to experience Christ who was in them.
Paul urged the Philippian Christians to be like them.
It was not just their doctrine they wanted the Christians to follow.
It was their life example they wanted them to imitate.
That means experience the same thing in the same way.
Enemies of the cross of Christ were not like Paul and his co-workers. They set their minds on earthly things. They didn't like to deny themselves the old manner of living. They didn't like to experience Christ.
They may have been very religious.
But they didn't like to be "crossed out" in order to let Christ live in them.
" Be imitators of me, brothers, and observe those who thus walk even as you have us as a pattern.
For many walk, of whom I have told you often and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ.
Whose end is destruction, whose god is their stomach, and whose glory is their shame, who set their minds on earthly things." (Phiippians 3:17-19)
12 Oct 15
Originally posted by sonshipSo lets see Sonship if what you say matches the Bible. The bible says:
What then are "enemies of the cross of Christ" ?
What does Paul mean by this phrase:
[quote] [b] " Be imitators of me, brothers, and observe those who thus walk even as you have us as a pattern.
For many walk, of whom I have told you often and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ.
Whose end is destruction, w ...[text shortened]... ork of the termination of the cross upon the self which ushers him into the enjoyment of Christ.
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) (Php 3:17-19)
And also:
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Heb 6:4-6)
And again:
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Heb 10:29)
And there are more, but those will do. To summarise what Pauls says without changing it or putting my own interpretation:
1. The end of 'enemies of the cross', is destruction
2. The punishment for those who 'crucify to themselves Christ afresh and shame him' will not be given forgiveness
3. Those who have 'trodden underfoot the Son of God' will face sorer punishment than death.
According to Paul these are all professed Christians who have continued with a sinful worldly life after being offered the saving grace of God through Christ. These are enemies of the cross of Christ.
However you say:
When a Christians denies himself in order to enjoy Christ instead who lives in him. He is allowing the cross of Christ to cancel his old way of life out in favor of enjoying a new life in God.
An enemy of the cross of Christ is one who will not deny himself in order to live Christ.
If an unbeliever denies himself he has nothing left.
The born again Christian has leftovers if he denies himself - Jesus living in Him.
An enemy of the cross of Christ doesn't like the work of the termination of the cross upon the self which ushers him into the enjoyment of Christ.
To be honest that sounds like a pile of gibberish and makes no sense. As usual your interpretation and twisting takes you far far away from the truth that is in Christ and the Apostles.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
It is not that necessary to go out of the book of Philippians to find out what are the enemies of the cross of Christ are. I don't deny that some corresponding verses exist in Hebrews about the same concept.
Let's stay at the moment in the book of Philippians:
1.) Paul was use to dying to the self that Christ might be manifest in him.
" ... according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I should be put to shame,
but with all boldness, as always, even now Christ will be manifested in my body whether through life or death.
For to me to live is Christ and to die is gain." (Phil. 20b-21)
Paul was NOT an enemy of the self denial of the cross of Christ. For him to live was CHRIST. Christ would be manifested in his body regardless of the toughness of his circumstances.
Paul says to imitate as he lived and not be swayed by the "enemies of the cross of Christ"
2.) In chapter 1 verses 27 Paul urges the Philippians saints to stand in oneness, firm in one spirit, striving together in one soul.
This all requires denying the self and taking Christ. This is to be accepting to the cross of Christ for the sake of a harmonious church life.
3.) It also requires the cross of Christ in self denial to obey the following:
"Make my joy full, that you think the one thing, having the same love, joined in soul, thinking the one thing." (1:3)
Naturally all people and all Christians are individualistic. To have the oneness in the church life requires thinking of Christ living in us.
That is "the one thing" - to live IS CHRIST.
Such thinking requires the cross of Christ as does the following:
"Doing nothing by way of selfish ambition nor by way of vainglory, but in lowliness of mind considering one another more excellent than yourselves,
Not regarding each his own virtues, but each the virtues of others also. " (v.3,4)
All these kinds of attitudes requires the self denial in favor of living out Jesus Christ. This is all the work of the cross of Christ. Enemies of the cross of Christ disdain to practice such things.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
12 Oct 15
4.) The following verses are the famous steps of Christ's self humbling obedience. That verses 5 through 11. They speak of how Christ was incarnated laying aside the glorious expression of His being equal with God. He became a man; a slave; a obedient and crucified slave. Wherefore God highly exalted Him.
All this exhortation to have this kind of mind also requires the crossing out of the cross of Christ.
"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. Who existing in the form of God did not consider being equal with God a treasure to be grasped, But emptied Himself .... etc. etc. etc. "
Having the same kind of mind, the churching saints need to apply the cross of Christ. We are naturally selfish, vainglorious, covetous for position, jealous for self exaltation. All these germs ruin the church life.
This too forms Paul's warning that some cannot live this way because they are "enemies of the cross of Christ" .
I could go on. And this post is not meant to say everything Rajk999 referred to in Hebrews was not relevant.
Probably one of the most significant verses in Philippians itself helping us to understand "enemies of the cross of Christ" is the following which speaks of the Old Testament symbol of self denial - circumcision.
" Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh." (Phil 3:2,3)
Cont. Below on this.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Paul writes:
" Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh." (Phil 3:2,3)
We are talking about what Paul means by "enemies of the cross of Christ". I am saying that they are enemies to a life of denying oneself in order to enjoy new life in Christ.
In the above passage dogs are evil doers. Dogs he also calls " the consicion ". What does Paul mean.
The reference to dogs probably refers to an unclean animal. What he means is people who are religious but are unclean. They are religious and zealous but in way that they are stilled defiled and like unclean animals that should not be eaten.
Beware of dogs means to beware of religious people who are not morally clean. They are the "CONCISION" . The concisions was a pejorative term for those who practice religious circumcision but were only for God outwardly as a religious show.
They did cut the foreskin. They did have circumcision and urged others to practice it. But their hears were far from the living God. They were zealous only for an outward practice of piety. Within and in their living they were unclean.
The unclean dogs were zealous in their religiousity. But they were viewed by the Lord's apostle as "evil workers". Many of them were actively opposing Paul and his co-workers. If Paul preached the gospel and people got saved, these unclean evil working "dogs" would come after Paul and try to tear down what he built up in his service to God.
Paul's reference to CIRCUMCISION in the next passage means that he and his co-workers AND the heeding Philippian Christians are the REALITY of what the Old Testament cutting of the flesh symbolized - denying of the self to enjoy Christ instead.
"But we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh." (v.3)
Note:
1.) The believers in Jesus Christ living in self denial and enjoying Christ are the real circumcision.
2.) The believers in Christ do not just make a SHOW of the "concision" cutting in the flesh. But they live by the Spirit of God.
3.) The fallen self is verses the Spirit of God Who is now Jesus Christ in the Christians. That is what they are called to live by. They should deny the old way of living. "The flesh" here stands for the entire fallen man in Adam.
3.) The Christians applying the real cutting off of the old man are the Christians utilizing the cross of Christ. And why? They have NO CONFIDENCE in the fallen Adamic nature. They have no confidence in the flesh. All their confidence is in Jesus Christ as the Spirit of God living in them.
4.) The Christians denying the self to live by Christ BOAST not in what they are in themselves. Their total boast in in Christ. Their confidence and their boasting are in Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ IS now the Spirit of God living in them.
Originally posted by sonshipThe rantings of desperation, when the truth sets in, and the undeniable fact staring you in the face, is that the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles is worlds apart from the false doctrine of Watchman Nee, a false teacher you have bowed down to, and whose doctrine you have have foolishly chewed, swallowed, digested, believed, and preached like a mindless parrot.
Paul writes:
" Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh." (Phil 3:2,3)
[/quote]
We are talking about what Paul means by"enemies of the cross of Christ". I am sayi nd their boasting are in Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ IS now the Spirit of God living in them.
What are you to do now?
There is always hope. Pray to God and ask for forgiveness and from this day forward preach only what Christ and the Apostles preached ... before it is too late.
12 Oct 15
Originally posted by Rajk999Sounds like good advice, you should too!
[b] The rantings of desperation, when the truth sets in, and the undeniable fact staring you in the face, is that the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles is worlds apart from the false doctrine of Watchman Nee, a false teacher you have bowed down to, and whose doctrine you have have foolishly chewed, swallowed, digested, believed, and preached like a mindl ...[text shortened]... his day forward preach only what Christ and the Apostles preached ... before it is too late.[/b]
12 Oct 15
Originally posted by Rajk999Enlighten me then ..... I will either stand or fall by God so be it..... You assume however way too much you do not know me or how I live my life..... However your very quick to think every Christian here Falls under your view of the reality...... God knows the intent of people's hearts and minds so honesty who cares what you think.
The level of ignorance which you proudly parade on this forum is appalling.
Let me help you out. Christ beef with the Pharisees was that they focused on the petty, shallow and superficial matters of the Law of Moses, ignoring the weightier matters.
When Christ returns his beef with Christianity will be along the same lines. Christianity is about trivi ...[text shortened]... conveniently ignore, call such people [b]enemies of the cross. You appear to be one of them.[/b]
Manny
Originally posted by menace71You and your OSAS type cannot carry on a discussion about Bible doctrine about eternal life, without getting personal. It is YOU that started getting personal by telling me, I have no joy, that I would have called Jesus a sinner and asking me if I sin. I have never asked you one single personal question neither have I made any personal remarks about you. The discussion was a general one.
Enlighten me then ..... I will either stand or fall by God so be it..... You assume however way too much you do not know me or how I live my life..... However your very quick to think every Christian here Falls under your view of the reality...... God knows the intent of people's hearts and minds so honesty who cares what you think.
Manny
I am the one that was carrying on an impersonal discussion until YOU decided to make those remarks.
And yes you apparently care what I think, because what I say is in the Bible and it is plain that Chrsit and the Apostles are disagreeing with YOU and those like Sonship and others who think they can live anyhow they like and still get eternal life.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
So the topic is "the enemies of the cross of Christ".
I have said essentially that "the cross of Christ" (Phil 3:18) represents self denial. This is the plain straightforward reference to Christ's OWN words.
"Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone wants to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
For whoever wants to save his soul-life shall lose it; but whoever loses his soul-life for My sake shall find it." (Matthew 16:24,25)
The cross of Christ in Matthew -DENY YOURSELF - PICK UP YOUR CROSS - FOLLOW JESUS . It means to ENJOY Jesus instead of yourself. It is to enjoy Christ in you and deny you WITHOUT Christ.
It is a word to WHO? - "Then Jesus said to His disciples ..."
"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his soul-life shall lose it, and he who loses his soul-life for My sake shall find it." (Matt. 10:38,39)
After we believe into Christ we can follow the self OR we can learn to deny the self (the soul-life) and follow Jesus. This is called picking up our cross.
As you can see there is nothing of gibberish or desperate here. In Philippians the phrase "enemies of the cross of Christ" refers to anyone who fails to deny themselves as to the Adamic nature so that they can find their true selves in Christ.
In Luke the same thing:
"And He said to them all, If anyone wants to come after Me, let him DENY HIMSELF ... TAKE UP HIS CROSS .. AND FOLLOW ME."
For whoever wants to save his soul-life shall lose it, but whoever loses his soul-life for My sake, this one shall save it.
For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world but loses himself ? " (Luke 9:23-25)
So what do you suppose Paul means by "enemies of the cross of Christ" ? It means those who will not deny the self in order to enjoy living by Jesus Christ.
Though cross is not mentioned, in John 12:25,26 the same teaching is there.
"He who loves his soul-life loses it; and he who hates his soul-life in this world shall keep it unto eternal life.
If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there also My servant will be. If anyone serves Me the Father will honor him."
"Enemies of the cross of Christ" (Phil. 3:18) in Philippians Paul warns the church against with weeping.
12 Oct 15
Originally posted by sonshipThe cross of Christ is NOT the same as someone picking up their cross and following Christ.
So the topic is [b]"the enemies of the cross of Christ".
I have said essentially that "the cross of Christ" (Phil 3:18) represents self denial. This is the plain straightforward reference to Christ's OWN words.
[quote] [b] "Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone wants to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Enemies of the cross of Christ are those who violate the doctrine of Christ or put Christ to shame by continuing with a sinful worldly life after knowing him. These Christians do not appreciate the work and suffering that Christ did on the cross. They care little for the teachings of Christ, and preach that Christ and his commandments do not apply to them. These are enemies of the cross of Christ.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
12 Oct 15
I have referred to some passages on taking up OUR cross to follow Jesus. Some relevant questions:
1.) Well does "take up your cross" really refer to Jesus' cross or the disciple's cross ?
Answer: It is ok to say that Jesus had His cross and His disciples each have theirs. But I think since we follow the example of Jesus denying Himself to follow the Father's will it really can be thought of as our cross also.
2.) Is His cross in every way our cross ?
No. We have absolutely no share in His work of REDEMPTION. Only the shedding of His blood accomplishes eternal redemption.
But we are called to SHARE in denying our soul-life in order to live by Christ. The work of the cross is needed for this.
3.) Is the work of the cross on our soul-life once for all or gradual and progressive?
Answer: It is for that vast majority of Christians - gradual, deepening, expanding, going deeper and deeper. It is learning in more and more things to live Christ within and deny the old SELF which is "the flesh" the old Adamic man.