Enlightenment

Originally posted by mikelom
Yep. They could take your 'houses' and build a road to hell thru them, for all you could do about it RJ! 😀

-m.

Yeah, or a bridge to heaven. 😏

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
in the united states, it is truly private property, just not your private property in most cases. your property is a lease or rental.

how can you tell if you live in a leased property? ask yourself the question: do you have to pay anyone for the right to stay in that property (eg: property taxes, mortgage payments)? and if you don't pay it, can they ...[text shortened]... like "eminent domain" )?

if the answer is yes, someone else owns the property you live in.

No, that's not true. You're using your own definitions for words like 'lease' and own'.

Originally posted by rwingett
When people like you finally recognize that capitalism is the handiwork of the devil, endless possibilities open up.

But you don't need to look far to see a ready made template for the Kingdom in action. I'm sure you've heard me talk on this forum about the Hutterites before. They're an Anabaptist sect similar to the Amish, but they practice a complete ...[text shortened]... Canada. If it is possible for anyone to be "god's chosen people", I believe they are it.

I'm not willing to go back to the technological dark ages in some vain hope of attaining utopia.

I miss the old atheistic rwingett.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
I'm not willing to go back to the technological dark ages in some vain hope of attaining utopia.

I miss the old atheistic rwingett.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I find as much entertainment in tweaking the noses of the atheist crowd these days as I do those of the theists. The fact of the matter is that my dislike for capitalist consumerism greatly outweighs my dislike for religion. I consider a Christian like Martin Luther King, Jr. to be infinitely preferable to an atheist like Ayn Rand.

But I don't believe in the god of the Hutterites anymore than I do in that of any of the other Christian denominations. That notwithstanding, however, the Hutterites have undeniably used their faith to build a model of social relations. One that is free from all the exploitation, oppression and artificially enforced scarcity of the rest of the world. Plus their lifestyle, unlike our technologically profligate one, is sustainable. They aren't running the ecosystem into the ground for the sake of a cheap dollar. And unlike the Amish, the Hutterites do not reject technology outright. They do use quite a bit more of it, while still managing to avoid falling into the endless pit of materialistic consumerism (which seems to be the inevitable outcome for secular societies).

I'm not suggesting that everyone should become a Hutterite. But it's possible their template of a propertyless, communal lifestyle could be successfully modified for use by society at large. The question seems to be whether a much more heterogeneous population could pull off the same level of cooperation. My hunch is that they could. It certainly couldn't be any worse than the pathetic debacle that unrestrained capitalism has brought into being.

Originally posted by rwingett
Sorry to disappoint you, but I find as much entertainment in tweaking the noses of the atheist crowd these days as I do those of the theists. The fact of the matter is that my dislike for capitalist consumerism greatly outweighs my dislike for religion. I consider a Christian like Martin Luther King, Jr. to be infinitely preferable to an atheist like Ayn Ra ...[text shortened]... be any worse than the pathetic debacle that unrestrained capitalism has brought into being.

Capitalism is not the problem. The problem is the capitalist Pig, the communist Pig, the socialist Pig, any of the other greedy Pigs of any other system.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Capitalism is not the problem. The problem is the capitalist Pig, the communist Pig, the socialist Pig, any of the other greedy Pigs of any other system.

Capitalism is a system that actively encourages people to be Pigs. In fact, the more porcine their behavior, the greater the rewards. It's not difficult to see why so many people behave that way when the very system itself is loaded with incentives for them to do so.

The Hutterite system, by contrast, has no outlet for porcine behavior. There is no avenue for people to behave like Pigs. The system is loaded with disincentives for that type of behavior. As a consequence, their society does not produce Pigs.

If you do not want a society of Pigs, then don't place people into a set of social relations that actively encourages their porcinification.

Originally posted by rwingett
When people like you finally recognize that capitalism is the handiwork of the devil, endless possibilities open up.

You lost me as soon as you blamed me without even knowing me.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
No, that's not true. You're using your own definitions for words like 'lease' and own'.

you do not own any property from which someone else can have you removed. the person or people who have that power own your property. you lease it from them. that's about as simple as this concept can be stated.

now let's look at an example.

A lease is a contractual arrangement calling for the lessee (user) to pay the lessor (owner) for use of an asset.

if you have a contract with the federal, state or municipal government which requires you to pay them an annual (or other payment arrangement) fee for the use of the property in which you reside then:

they are the lessor; they own the property if they can withhold the property from you for failure to pay for the use of the property.

and you are the lessee, or user of the property and you have to pay for the right to use it.

these are not my definitions for 'lease' and 'own'

Originally posted by divegeester
You lost me as soon as you blamed me without even knowing me.

Don't play games, Divegeester. If you want to have a discussion, then do it. But quit grasping for excuses to duck out while pretending that your 'honor' has been affronted.

Originally posted by rwingett
Capitalism is a system that actively encourages people to be Pigs. In fact, the more porcine their behavior, the greater the rewards. It's not difficult to see why so many people behave that way when the very system itself is loaded with incentives for them to do so.

The Hutterite system, by contrast, has no outlet for porcine behavior. There is no aven ...[text shortened]... 't place people into a set of social relations that actively encourages their porcinification.

But if a person is a Christian capitalist, he can earn more so he can help society in general, with more jobs, and more charity. Christ was demonstrating capitalism in the parable of the talents. The servant that did not invest his talent to earn more was condemned.

In the USA the Democratic Party is more on your side against capitalism than the Republican Party. The democrats do not understand that hurting the business also hurst the nation as a whole. They want to unfairly tax them, which hurts their investment prospects. The Republicans realize that Christian run businesses will generate more wealth that will benefit everyone by providing jobs and more capital for more investment and charitable donations that will help the whole society. The democrats are basically telling the people that they don't have to work if they don't want to because we will take money from the rich and give to your lazy asses.

Originally posted by rwingett
Don't play games, Divegeester. If you want to have a discussion, then do it. But quit grasping for excuses to duck out while pretending that your 'honor' has been affronted.

I'm a little surprised that directive blame was your first response to my fair question about how you think your utopian sharing society might come into being.

Your second response was to quote Biblical scripture; if you think religion is the route to your vision then fine; if not, then stop "playing games" yourself and answer the question.

Originally posted by divegeester
I'm a little surprised that directive blame was your first response to my fair question about how you think your utopian sharing society might come into being.

Your second response was to quote Biblical scripture; if you think religion is the route to your vision then fine; if not, then stop "playing games" yourself and answer the question.

😴

Originally posted by RJHinds
But if a person is a Christian capitalist, he can earn more so he can help society in general, with more jobs, and more charity. Christ was demonstrating capitalism in the parable of the talents. The servant that did not invest his talent to earn more was condemned.

In the USA the Democratic Party is more on your side against capitalism than the Republi rk if they don't want to because we will take money from the rich and give to your lazy asses.

Christianity and capitalism are wholly incompatible. Or they would be if Christianity actually had anything to do with what Jesus said.

Your wrangling between Republicans and Democrats is the type of outmoded thinking that keeps people locked into a system where only the interests of the ruling elite are represented. You have to leave that behind and realize that change does not come through the political system. The Kingdom cannot be legislated into existence. In fact, just as there are no politics in Hutterite society, there will be no politics in the Kingdom. Politics are only necessary for a fallen and iniquitous world.

Originally posted by divegeester
I'm a little surprised that directive blame was your first response to my fair question about how you think your utopian sharing society might come into being.

Your second response was to quote Biblical scripture; if you think religion is the route to your vision then fine; if not, then stop "playing games" yourself and answer the question.

I believe rwingett is thinking in his mind -- divegeester is not the boss of me and I don't have to answer the question.

Originally posted by rwingett
Christianity and capitalism are wholly incompatible. Or they would be if Christianity actually had anything to do with what Jesus said.

Your wrangling between Republicans and Democrats is the type of outmoded thinking that keeps people locked into a system where only the interests of the ruling elite are represented. You have to leave that behind and re ...[text shortened]... ll be no politics in the Kingdom. Politics are only necessary for a fallen and iniquitous world.

A Kingdom will not work without a perfect King and there is no perfect King on Earth. All Kingdoms have failed to create a perfect society and the Kingdom of Satan will not be able to do it either.