Enlightenment

Originally posted by rwingett
Your cynicism is rather dull.

You are rather unconvincing, so you'll have to cut me some slack for being dull.

Originally posted by FMF
You are rather unconvincing, so you'll have to cut me some slack for being dull.

Like Pharaoh, your heart has been hardened.

Originally posted by rwingett
And I say unto you that that is the failing of your top-down, hierarchical thinking. You don't scale the system up at all. You replicate it millions of times over. It's a horizontal expansion, not a vertical one.

I'm more interested in the logistics of setting up and maintaining this system of communities (and I meant system as a collection - as such scaling applies to an increase in numbers of communities - a horizontal, as you say, expansion).
That there exist 42000+ hutterites right now suggests there are sufficient resources and infrastructure to comfortably sustain that number. It may well be the case that increasing the number of such communities by a thousand (still numerically trivial in comparison to the world population) is still comfortably within the realms of feasibility. What concerns me however, is how feasible such a system would be on a world scale where it is not the case that we can argue a vastly greater majority of people in capitalist systems are supporting them.

If it could be shown that for some large and non-contiguous collection of hutterite communities, all living independently of non-hutterite like communitiesReveal Hidden ContentReveal Hidden Content, every community within that collection could operate effectively in spite of any disadvantage each has due to climate, geography, competitionReveal Hidden Content, and so forth... then I'm all ears.

For now it seems like something nice that is sustainable only in "small numbers".

Originally posted by Agerg
For now it seems like something nice that is sustainable only in "small numbers".

Actually it is apparently not all that nice. Not worth moving halfway around the country for anyway.

Originally posted by Agerg
I'm more interested in the logistics of setting up and maintaining this system of communities (and I meant system as a collection - as such scaling applies to an increase in numbers of communities - a horizontal, as you say, expansion).
That there exist 42000+ hutterites right now suggests there are sufficient resources and infrastructure to comfortably sust l ears.

For now it seems like something nice that is sustainable only in "small numbers".

I fail to see why there would no further "import or export of goods, services, technology, or information once established." Do you think that current Hutterite communities are either all contiguous, or that they have no contact with one another? I can assure you that they are not all contiguous and that they still manage to interact. But perhaps I misunderstand your point.

But what is certain is that your current system of industrialized agriculture is wholly unsustainable in very, very large numbers. We are currently expending the resources of 1.4 earths to keep the whole thing going. In other words, as far as the ecosystem goes, we are living on borrowed capital. We are depleting our account at a furious pace. And the day of reckoning will not be too far into the future. You cannot support 7 billion people at current rates of consumption. But you could support 7 billion (or more) people at the level of consumption that the Hutterites have.

Originally posted by Agerg
I'm more interested in the logistics of setting up and maintaining this system of communities (and I meant system as a collection - as such scaling applies to an increase in numbers of communities - a horizontal, as you say, expansion).
That there exist 42000+ hutterites right now suggests there are sufficient resources and infrastructure to comfortably sust ...[text shortened]... l ears.

For now it seems like something nice that is sustainable only in "small numbers".

You don't like competition???

Originally posted by rwingett
I fail to see why there would no further "import or export of goods, services, technology, or information once established." Do you think that current Hutterite communities are either all contiguous, or that they have no contact with one another? I can assure you that they are not all contiguous and that they still manage to interact. But perhaps I misunder ...[text shortened]... could support 7 billion (or more) people at the level of consumption that the Hutterites have.

I fail to see why there would no further "import or export of goods, services, technology, or information once established." Do you think that current Hutterite communities are either all contiguous, or that they have no contact with one another? I can assure you that they are not all contiguous and that they still manage to interact. But perhaps I misunderstand your point.
In the demonstration I'd like to see, I have no problems with any of the hutterite communities interacting with other hutterite communitiesReveal Hidden Content, however I would not want them to be tainted by non-hutterites Reveal Hidden Content. So essentially I'd like to see, after the initial bootstrapping stage, that these communities can operate, on a larger scale, without the interaction with non-hutterite communities (paying particular attention to how it plays out with lots of unlucky communities - those who for various reasons, need varying degrees of help from other communities to survive).

But what is certain is that your current system of industrialized agriculture is wholly unsustainable in very, very large numbers. We are currently expending the resources of 1.4 earths to keep the whole thing going. In other words, as far as the ecosystem goes, we are living on borrowed capital. We are depleting our account at a furious pace. And the day of reckoning will not be too far into the future. You cannot support 7 billion people at current rates of consumption. But you could support 7 billion (or more) people at the level of consumption that the Hutterites have.
I agree that our current system is unsustainable, and I'll concede it's probably the case that any efficiencies gained with technology are offset by our tendency to be wasteful. But that said, I'd argue the greater problem is the fact that the earth is over-populated with humans in the first placeReveal Hidden Content. Moreover with the exception of better education and stricter birth control policies I don't see any way to lighten this burden.
With regards supporting the rate of consumption that hutterites have, many areas of the world (where hutterites would live) don't yield enough resources to be self-sustaining. As such a massive (and selfless) humanitarian effort would need to be consistently sustained on the part of many of those who can sustain themselves (putting pressure on said sustainability). They would have to rally together to efficiently, frequently, and reliably transport large quantities of sanitary goods to these communities. This effort would have to be meticulously organised (to avoid wastage, or starvation). There are no doubt other variables that come into play as we think big, and pessimistic or not, I'm not convinced it would be a stable system.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You don't like competition???

I neither said nor implied that.

Originally posted by rwingett
Perhaps you missed the whole part about the Hutterites. They live the way I've been describing. I'd have thought that you'd have picked up on that by now. Look at how they manage their "communistic" version of society and you'll have your answer. There are 42,000+ people living that way now, in the real world.

As for myself, it's true, I'm not living th ...[text shortened]... t extra mile yourself. When you do that, Divegeester, then you will have his blessing.

The Hutterites are to global societal modeling what David Ike is to religion; odd and completely statistically irrelevant.

I (along with most of the world's population) realise that society needs to change. It is you who are deluded rwingett; also I percieve, a rather sad middle-aged ex-hippie who still longs for a post anarchic utopia where all things belong to all people; except your personal stash of weed no doubt.

Originally posted by divegeester
The Hutterites are to global societal modeling what David Ike is to religion; odd and completely statistically irrelevant.

I (along with most of the world's population) realise that society needs to change. It is you who are deluded rwingett; also I percieve, a rather sad middle-aged ex-hippie who still longs for a post anarchic utopia where all things belong to all people; except your personal stash of weed no doubt.

Let's see...I seem to recall that there were once twelve apostles who were statistically irrelevant. I wonder whatever became of them and their message?

As for your mean and hurtful attacks on my personal character, they are inaccurate. All except for the part about being middle-aged. That one is correct. I'll be 50 next year.

Originally posted by Agerg
I fail to see why there would no further "import or export of goods, services, technology, or information once established." Do you think that current Hutterite communities are either all contiguous, or that they have no contact with one another? I can assure you that they are not all contiguous and that they still manage to interact. But perhaps I misunder k big, and pessimistic or not, I'm not convinced it would be a stable system.

Sorry to foil your artificial constraints, but Hutterite communities interact with the big, bad world now. Somehow they manage to remain untainted. Maybe it's Hutterite magic. Every time a community gets a little too large, a portion of it will calve off and purchase land from us heathens to start a new community on. That's merely one example of their interaction. There are many others.

As for it not being a stable system...do you really think what we have going now is stable? In the age of global casino capitalism, nothing is stable. And it's getting more unstable all the time. Whether you like it or not, enormous changes are on the horizon. We can try to make them voluntarily, or they will simply be forced upon us by circumstances. Each system will have its own particular set of problems. It's simply beyond my ability to micromanage a planet and tell you how every variable is going to work. But I think that reasonably bright people like yourself should be able to come up with some suitable solutions.

But here's my solution to the transport problem: solar powered airships piloted by neo-Hutterite aeronauts. Check out that link below. Sixty tons of cargo, all on solar power. Of course they'd be built at the collectively owned and managed Hutterite airship factory. Eventually.

http://www.solarairship.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51&Itemid=57

Originally posted by rwingett
Let's see...I seem to recall that there were once twelve apostles who were statistically irrelevant. I wonder whatever became of them and their message?

As for your mean and hurtful attacks on my personal character, they are inaccurate. All except for the part about being middle-aged. That one is correct. I'll be 50 next year.

Mmm, I can see you as the anarchic and somewhat misanthropic 'Messiah of the Hutts'; although you would be more of Jack than a Ralph I feel.

Originally posted by divegeester
Mmm, I can see you as the anarchic and somewhat misanthropic 'Messiah of the Hutts'; although you would be more of Jack than a Ralph I feel.

Jack than a Ralph? I don't get it.

How about Jabba the Hutterite?

Originally posted by rwingett
Jack than a Ralph? I don't get it.

How about Jabba the Hutterite?

Exactly. I'm sure there are many parallels where a supposedly non-hierarchical community adopted a new leader from outside (or found him thrust upon them) and ended up in a partisan situation. Jack and Ralph are examples from Lord of the Flies.

Originally posted by divegeester
Exactly. I'm sure there are many parallels where a supposedly non-hierarchical community adopted a new leader from outside (or found him thrust upon them) and ended up in a partisan situation. Jack and Ralph are examples from Lord of the Flies.

I'm angling for Simon's job.