1. Wat?
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    31 Aug '12 09:19
    Can one only find true enlightenment if one has no responsibilities to others?

    Can the man with family, and dues and debts to pay, find enlightenment the same as a monk who lives alone, and has no responsibilities to others for providing for them?

    -m.
  2. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    31 Aug '12 11:001 edit
    Originally posted by mikelom
    Can one only find true enlightenment if one has no responsibilities to others?

    Can the man with family, and dues and debts to pay, find enlightenment the same as a monk who lives alone, and has no responsibilities to others for providing for them?

    -m.
    The concept of private property is the complete abnegation of any responsibility toward others. To endorse private property is to say that I can accumulate wealth while others around me starve. It is to delude oneself into believing that their suffering is wholly unconnected from my prosperity, when, in fact, each is a direct result of the other. And those of us who have dues and pay debts are collaborating in that system of inequality and oppression and thereby providing the means for it to endure endlessly. Those who renounce private property and who do not participate in that system are withholding the lubricant that keeps the vast mechanism from churning along.
  3. England
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    31 Aug '12 11:46
    Originally posted by mikelom
    Can one only find true enlightenment if one has no responsibilities to others?

    Can the man with family, and dues and debts to pay, find enlightenment the same as a monk who lives alone, and has no responsibilities to others for providing for them?

    -m.
    what is your idea of enlightenment,
  4. Wat?
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    31 Aug '12 14:59
    Originally posted by stoker
    what is your idea of enlightenment,
    In not too many words, restraint of the senses that causes ignoble truth - i.e. suffering, in all senses of that word.
  5. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    31 Aug '12 17:17
    Originally posted by mikelom
    In not too many words, restraint of the senses that causes ignoble truth - i.e. suffering, in all senses of that word.
    All social suffering is caused by private property. It is mankind's original sin. The longing to 'own' things to the exclusion of everyone else is both the root cause of suffering and the fuel that feeds it. The only way to transcend suffering is to renounce private property and the acquisitive greed that it fosters. Nothing belongs to you and nothing can be withheld from you.

    Before The Fall, the resources that sustained life on this planet were the common treasury of All. Now each square mile is surrounded by a Wall. (needs a little work).
  6. Joined
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    31 Aug '12 17:43
    Originally posted by rwingett
    All social suffering is caused by private property. It is mankind's original sin. The longing to 'own' things to the exclusion of everyone else is both the root cause of suffering and the fuel that feeds it. The only way to transcend suffering is to renounce private property and the acquisitive greed that it fosters. Nothing belongs to you and nothing can b ...[text shortened]... common treasury of All. Now each square mile is surrounded by a Wall. (needs a little work).
    yep.
  7. Standard memberavalanchethecat
    Not actually a cat
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    31 Aug '12 18:25
    Originally posted by rwingett
    All social suffering is caused by private property. It is mankind's original sin. The longing to 'own' things to the exclusion of everyone else is both the root cause of suffering and the fuel that feeds it. The only way to transcend suffering is to renounce private property and the acquisitive greed that it fosters. Nothing belongs to you and nothing can b ...[text shortened]... common treasury of All. Now each square mile is surrounded by a Wall. (needs a little work).
    Rec'd
  8. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    01 Sep '12 01:261 edit
    Originally posted by mikelom
    Can one only find true enlightenment if one has no responsibilities to others?

    Can the man with family, and dues and debts to pay, find enlightenment the same as a monk who lives alone, and has no responsibilities to others for providing for them?

    -m.
    Intuitively I feel that in the past you would have to go to a secluded spot for proper meditation away from the distractions of the world, where as now I think that it is our mission to integrate the world which means coming back home from the caves and taking up your normal (family ) life.

    Without getting to complex or waffling on too much , I would say that you can never copy others to find your own Zen, although others can guide the way before you embark on the "dark night of the soul", which is a solitary insight, based entirely on the authority of the adept and no one else..
    Living and breathing zazen in a modern day family context should be a really interesting experiment and funny.
    I think everyone's going to laugh a hell of a lot more due to all the lessons that they will be catching up on, releasing all that pent up energy that was built on a false understanding of ourselves.
  9. Standard memberRJHinds
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    01 Sep '12 05:16
    Originally posted by rwingett
    All social suffering is caused by private property. It is mankind's original sin. The longing to 'own' things to the exclusion of everyone else is both the root cause of suffering and the fuel that feeds it. The only way to transcend suffering is to renounce private property and the acquisitive greed that it fosters. Nothing belongs to you and nothing can b ...[text shortened]... common treasury of All. Now each square mile is surrounded by a Wall. (needs a little work).
    In the USA, so-called private property like I have is not truely private. The government can take it, if they believe they have a better need for it. They usually pay you some compenstaion for it, but not what you want for it.
  10. Joined
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    01 Sep '12 07:241 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    In the USA, so-called private property like I have is not truely private. The government can take it, if they believe they have a better need for it. They usually pay you some compenstaion for it, but not what you want for it.
    in the united states, it is truly private property, just not your private property in most cases. your property is a lease or rental.

    how can you tell if you live in a leased property? ask yourself the question: do you have to pay anyone for the right to stay in that property (eg: property taxes, mortgage payments)? and if you don't pay it, can they seize it from you and throw you out (or use some other legal measure like "eminent domain" )?

    if the answer is yes, someone else owns the property you live in.
  11. Standard memberRJHinds
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    01 Sep '12 08:15
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    in the united states, it is truly private property, just not your private property in most cases. your property is a lease or rental.

    how can you tell if you live in a leased property? ask yourself the question: do you have to pay anyone for the right to stay in that property (eg: property taxes, mortgage payments)? and if you don't pay it, can they ...[text shortened]... like "eminent domain" )?

    if the answer is yes, someone else owns the property you live in.
    I live in the USA and I know what a leased property is and I do not live in a leased or rented house. In fact I own two houses. There is a law called Eminent Domain in the USA in which the government can take part of the land or all of the land that my houses are on. I can have the houses moved if possible, but my houses are brick houses.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain
  12. Wat?
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    01 Sep '12 09:49
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    I live in the USA and I know what a leased property is and I do not live in a leased or rented house. In fact I own two houses. There is a law called Eminent Domain in the USA in which the government can take part of the land or all of the land that my houses are on. I can have the houses moved if possible, but my houses are brick houses.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain
    Yep. They could take your 'houses' and build a road to hell thru them, for all you could do about it RJ! 😀

    -m.
  13. Joined
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    01 Sep '12 10:02
    Originally posted by rwingett
    All social suffering is caused by private property. It is mankind's original sin. The longing to 'own' things to the exclusion of everyone else is both the root cause of suffering and the fuel that feeds it. The only way to transcend suffering is to renounce private property and the acquisitive greed that it fosters. Nothing belongs to you and nothing can b ...[text shortened]... common treasury of All. Now each square mile is surrounded by a Wall. (needs a little work).
    How do you envisage this utopia of sharing coming into being?
  14. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    01 Sep '12 11:55
    Originally posted by divegeester
    How do you envisage this utopia of sharing coming into being?
    When people like you finally recognize that capitalism is the handiwork of the devil, endless possibilities open up.

    But you don't need to look far to see a ready made template for the Kingdom in action. I'm sure you've heard me talk on this forum about the Hutterites before. They're an Anabaptist sect similar to the Amish, but they practice a complete community of goods, as they believe the bible instructs them to do (Acts 2:43-47, Acts 4:32-37).

    They have no private property and a very egalitarian society (within the limitations of rigid gender roles). While they're far from perfect, there is no crime, no war, and no poverty. There are about 42,000 Hutterites, spread among 483 colonies throughout the western US and Canada. If it is possible for anyone to be "god's chosen people", I believe they are it.
  15. Standard memberRJHinds
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    01 Sep '12 14:55
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterite
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