Enlightenment

Originally posted by RJHinds
A Kingdom will not work without a perfect King and there is no perfect King on Earth. All Kingdoms have failed to create a perfect society and the Kingdom of Satan will not be able to do it either.

Experience proves you wrong. Do the Hutterites have a 'king?' Yet they have, if not a 'perfect' society, then one that certainly approximates it far more closely than anything else out there.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I believe rwingett is thinking in his mind -- divegeester is not the boss of me and I don't have to answer the question.

Divegeester is a waste of my time. As always.

But to answer the question, my "utopia" will come into existence when people (myself, Divegeester, and other people) quit collaborating in the system of exploitation and oppression that we currently have. The current system is only able to propagate itself because we all take our thirty pieces of silver on a daily basis and turn a blind eye to the iniquities around us. When we collectively change our own behavior, when we quit participating in that system, when we quit pretending that the workings of that system are somebody else's fault and that we are powerless to change it, then on that day you will realize that the Kingdom is all around us, but men do not see it.

Originally posted by rwingett
Sorry to disappoint you, but I find as much entertainment in tweaking the noses of the atheist crowd these days as I do those of the theists. The fact of the matter is that my dislike for capitalist consumerism greatly outweighs my dislike for religion. I consider a Christian like Martin Luther King, Jr. to be infinitely preferable to an atheist like Ayn Ra ...[text shortened]... be any worse than the pathetic debacle that unrestrained capitalism has brought into being.

I quite like this!

-m.

Originally posted by rwingett
Divegeester is a waste of my time. As always.

But to answer the question, my "utopia" will come into existence when people (myself, Divegeester, and other people) quit collaborating in the system of exploitation and oppression that we currently have. The current system is only able to propagate itself because we all take our thirty pieces of silver on a ...[text shortened]... , then on that day you will realize that the Kingdom is all around us, but men do not see it.

kind of difficult when we systematically send our children to become indoctrinated into this system of exploitation and oppression; reward those who excel at it and punish those who have too much humanity.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
kind of difficult when we systematically send our children to become indoctrinated into this system of exploitation and oppression; reward those who excel at it and punish those who have too much humanity.

True. The system manages to stay in place because it works just well enough, for just enough people to keep it from collapsing. But I think more people are waking up to the fact that global casino capitalism is not working in the interest of the bulk of society. Windfall profits for the financial elite and austerity for everyone else. The only answer that economists and other such charlatans seem to offer is an increased dose of the same failed policies. The kings in Versailles never foresaw their own downfall, just as the Wall Street crooks are oblivious to the inevitability of their own, but it will come just the same.

Originally posted by rwingett
True. The system manages to stay in place because it works just well enough, for just enough people to keep it from collapsing. But I think more people are waking up to the fact that global casino capitalism is not working in the interest of the bulk of society. Windfall profits for the financial elite and austerity for everyone else. The only answer that e ...[text shortened]... l Street crooks are oblivious to the inevitability of their own, but it will come just the same.

that it will, but i wonder if there will be enough of us left around to appreciate it after the dust settles.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
that it will, but i wonder if there will be enough of us left around to appreciate it after the dust settles.

Are you suggesting a holocaust is on its way? 🙄

-m. 😉

Originally posted by rwingett
Sorry to disappoint you, but I find as much entertainment in tweaking the noses of the atheist crowd these days as I do those of the theists. The fact of the matter is that my dislike for capitalist consumerism greatly outweighs my dislike for religion. I consider a Christian like Martin Luther King, Jr. to be infinitely preferable to an atheist like Ayn Ra be any worse than the pathetic debacle that unrestrained capitalism has brought into being.

I'm down with slapping some restraints on capitalism so long as we don't all have to become farmers. 😛

Edit: Or Christians.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
you do not own any property from which someone else can have you removed. the person or people who have that power own your property. you lease it from them. that's about as simple as this concept can be stated.

now let's look at an example.

A lease is a contractual arrangement calling for the lessee (user) to pay the lessor (owner) for use of an ...[text shortened]... have to pay for the right to use it.

these are not my definitions for 'lease' and 'own'

You do own your home even though foreclosure can happen if you don't pay the mortgage.

Your assets can be seized if you fail [for example] to pay income tax. If that nullified property ownership, then no one required to pay income tax would be considered a property owner. It's hard to say if there would be any property owners at all under such a strange definition of own.

Property taxes are the law. They are not some signed contract between just the owner and the government. They apply to most citizens. They do not nullify ownership.

Property taxes are not just a fee for use of the property. They are used partly for funding education [horrible though it may be].

Originally posted by rwingett
Divegeester is a waste of my time. As always.

But to answer the question, my "utopia" will come into existence when people (myself, Divegeester, and other people) quit collaborating in the system of exploitation and oppression that we currently have. The current system is only able to propagate itself because we all take our thirty pieces of silver on a ...[text shortened]... , then on that day you will realize that the Kingdom is all around us, but men do not see it.

Seeing as how nobody on earth lives as you describe (including yourself unsurprisingly) and that you offer no explanation of how we should commence the journey, manage the social mechanisms or maintain the status quo when we get there, it is hardly surprising that your communistic vision is not taken seriously.

Your regard of legitimate questions as an intrusion into your own personal fairy-tale is indicative of your extremist mind-set; I do wonder how you would behave in this make-believe social construct.

Originally posted by divegeester
Seeing as how nobody on earth lives as you describe (including yourself unsurprisingly) and that you offer no explanation of how we should commence the journey, manage the social mechanisms or maintain the status quo when we get there, it is hardly surprising that your communistic vision is not taken seriously.

Your regard of legitimate questions as ...[text shortened]... your extremist mind-set; I do wonder how you would behave in this make-believe social construct.

Perhaps you missed the whole part about the Hutterites. They live the way I've been describing. I'd have thought that you'd have picked up on that by now. Look at how they manage their "communistic" version of society and you'll have your answer. There are 42,000+ people living that way now, in the real world.

As for myself, it's true, I'm not living that way. But the first step toward changing the society you live in is to recognize that it needs changing, and that your own actions play a part in determining what character society will take going forward. People like you, on the other hand, are perfectly happy to continue collaborating with an oppressive system and deluding yourself into believing that your own actions are somehow unconnected from the continuance of that system. When you accept that YOU are part of the problem, Divegeester, then you can begin to set things aright. Otherwise you'll just keep helping to propagate the same litany of abuses that are so prevalent. Swallow your arrogant pride, accept that you are a sinner, and you will be reborn into a new world. A new world where the only limitations upon our capacity for righteousness are the ones you impose yourself.

You have been deluded into believing that salvation is an atomized and individualistic phenomenon. It is not. Salvation is very much a social phenomenon. But it begins with individuals changing their own behavior, for taking responsibility for their own part in propagating the current system of iniquities, and then joining together with others to collectively alter those conditions and to actualize the Kingdom itself. The Kingdom is always present at hand. It is always just over the horizon. But Jesus isn't going to bring it to you on a silver platter. He is waiting for you to rise to the occasion and go that extra mile yourself. When you do that, Divegeester, then you will have his blessing.

Originally posted by rwingett
Perhaps you missed the whole part about the Hutterites. They live the way I've been describing. I'd have thought that you'd have picked up on that by now. Look at how they manage their "communistic" version of society and you'll have your answer. There are 42,000+ people living that way now, in the real world.

As for myself, it's true, I'm not living th ...[text shortened]... t extra mile yourself. When you do that, Divegeester, then you will have his blessing.

You live with the Hutterites then, do you?

Originally posted by rwingett
As for myself, it's true, I'm not living that way. But the first step toward changing the society you live in is to recognize that it needs changing, and that your own actions play a part in determining what character society will take going forward. People like you, on the other hand...

Anyone can recognize that society needs changing. The first step toward changing the society you live in is to take action and actually do what you urge other people to do.

Good grief, you single yourself out as recognizing that society needs changing? How funny.

People like you, on the other hand... what?

Originally posted by rwingett
Perhaps you missed the whole part about the Hutterites. They live the way I've been describing. I'd have thought that you'd have picked up on that by now. Look at how they manage their "communistic" version of society and you'll have your answer. There are 42,000+ people living that way now, in the real world.

As for myself, it's true, I'm not living th t extra mile yourself. When you do that, Divegeester, then you will have his blessing.

Perhaps you missed the whole part about the Hutterites. They live the way I've been describing. I'd have thought that you'd have picked up on that by now. Look at how they manage their "communistic" version of society and you'll have your answer. There are 42,000+ people living that way now, in the real world.
There are roughly 7 billion people living in the world at present; 42000+Reveal Hidden Contentliving as hutteritesReveal Hidden Contentrepresents ~0.0006% of them. There is little reason, yet, to believe that system scales.

Originally posted by Agerg
There are roughly 7 billion people living in the world at present; 42000+[hidden]assuming the \"+\" is small change[/hidden]living as hutterites[hidden]using technology created by capitalists of course[/hidden]represents ~0.0006% of them. There is little reason, yet, to believe that system scales.

If they even can't recruit rwingett and make him walk the walk - when he is talking the talk and the sneering the sneer with such aplomb here - then there is little reason, yet, to believe anything whatsoever about that system.