Eternal Gospel vs the Gospel of Grace

Originally posted by Rajk999
I made a comment on another thread and raised the issue of what Christ said when He interpreted the parable of the Sower and the Seed, and what Christ said is contrary to your teachings. However you ran away from that discussion.

BS is not profanity. In any case the most 'corrupt word' that can proceed from any Christian's mouth is false doctrines, such as doctrines not preached by Christ .. like what you are famous for preaching.

Originally posted by sonship
We have been through this probably four times.
I have no confidence you will be corrected.
Clarification of my thoughts were made before.

You didn't listen then. I doubt you will now.
You think you have something on me which is just too good to let go. I don't think about clarifying yet again what I wrote and meant.

Like Rajk999, you come to th ...[text shortened]... nly one subject for discussion. Every talk has to eventually gravitate back to your accusations.

erased,
And erased.

Still reviewing some facts about Matt. 25:31-46 and "an eternal gospel"{/b] of [b]Revelation 14:6,7.

1.) As I pointed out, this judgment in Matt. 25:31-46 is of the nations - "Gentiles".

2.) These people, both the sheep and the goats, have never known the Lord Jesus.

I elaborated that there may come such a time on earth where the Gospels will be suppressed to that point under a exceedingly hostile world order. At least in some places it could be true.

3. ) We cannot say works are not involved in their salvation / condemnation.

The works came from their response to the preaching of "an eternal gospel" by the angel in the air during the darkest times of the great tribulation - (Rev. 14:6,7).

4,) The church is chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4). But these saved "sheep" people from the Gentiles are chosen "from the foundation of the world" (Matt. 25:34)

5.) These saved "sheep" showed kindness to the least of the brethren of the Lord Jesus (Matt. 25:40) without realizing they had done this kindness to the Lord Himself.

If these were Christians, how could they fail to know this?
Certainly, Christians deal kindly with the brethren of the Lord Jesus, even lowly ones, for the sake of the Lord Jesus Himself.

Even Jews give alms for the sake of Yahweh. But these people are totally ignorant. But even the wicked servant or the lazy servant knows the Lord Jesus (Matt. 25:40, 24:48)

6.) The judgment of Christians is carried out in the air and not on earth. It is carried out at the judgment seat of Christ, as He hovers over the surface of the planet in a cloud, and before He comes down with those rewarded to accompany Him as overcomers.

So this judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 is emphatically NOT the judgment seat of Christ for His Christians.

7.) The judgment in this parable / prophecy is not related to the first resurrection. It does not say they were dead and lived. It simply says they were gathered. They must be living on earth when Jesus descends.

8.) In the sight of God the saved and the unsaved are never mixed together.

9.) The least of the brothers must of necessity be a distinct group FROM both the sheep and the goats. If the judgment seat of Christ has occurred in the air before Jesus touches down on the earth in the Holy Land, then the Christians have already been judged.

10.) Christians well know that they should love the Lord's children. But these judged people have no such knowledge.

11.) They feared God the Creator. They come to realize that that God is in Jesus Christ. They apparently did not know this at the time they considered HOW to treat the Lord's suffering people.

12.) If the sheep do represent Christians then Christians are saved eternally not by faith but by showing kindness to the least of the brethren of Jesus.

13.) If the sheep are responding to the Christian gospel than an Atheist who opposes Jesus Christ can be saved by at least being kind to a Christian.

This is supported nowhere in the New Testament.

14.) If people are saved by distributing food, showing hospitality, sending cloths, and visiting the sick and the imprisoned, then the least of the brethren would themselves have no chance to be saved; for how can the imprisoned perform such good deeds ?

15.) It says not that eternal life enters into the saved but they enter into eternal life. We know that after the millennium some who lived during that time will be tested and fail when Satan is released from his prison.

So, the entering into eternal life, rather than being born again, could mean they will be healed to longevity just like Adam and Eve were created with an everlasting life BEFORE they ate the forbidden fruit and had cause to die.

Originally posted by sonship
I ran away ? Don't remember running away from you of all people.

But then again some foolish leper diseased with contagious germs might boast that he notices people "running away" from him as well.

So I count you as the proud leper, strutting around bragging how people want to keep their distance from your rot.

.. However according to Jesus himself, there are several categories of believers who hears the word of God.. The parable of the sower explains :

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

1. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

2. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

3. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

4. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. (Luk 8:11-15)

Four classes of people that hear the word of God.
1. Those that hear but dont believe
2. Those that hear, believe and fall away thereafter
3. Those that hear, believe but produce no fruit
4. Those that hear, believe and produce fruit.

Obviously to hear is not good enough, neither is believing good enough. Producing fruit is what is required after believing .. not more believing. Producing fruit = producing good works and following commandments. Only category 4 will be in Gods Kingdom. Unfruitful believers are those that do nothing except claim to believe. In John 15, Jesus explains the fate of unfruitful believers... - they will be destroyed.

According to your doctrine all will be in Gods Kingdom except Cat 1. Cat 2, 3 and 4 all are believers and all will be eternally saved. Christ disagrees with you however.

As for John 1:16 several translations renders the wording: Because of all that the Son is, we have been given one blessing after another. (Joh 1:16) Grace is just another word for blessings from God. To sit there as a believer in Christ and just ask for blessing after blessing without producing fruit is just asking for damnation.

Originally posted by sonship
erased,
And erased.

Originally posted by divegeester
Either say it, or don't say it. Posting "erased" is just a slightly pompous way of saying "I had a really good comeback but my ethics won't let post it". Let's stick to the thread topic then shall we?

Could you please tell me succinctly, what "dispensational translation" is?

Thank you.

Rajk999 writes again on his one subject matter -

Four classes of people that hear the word of God.
1. Those that hear but dont believe
2. Those that hear, believe and fall away thereafter
3. Those that hear, believe but produce no fruit
4. Those that hear, believe and produce fruit.

Obviously to hear is not good enough, neither is believing good enough. Producing fruit is what is required after believing .. not more believing. Producing fruit = producing good works and following commandments. Only category 4 will be in Gods Kingdom. Unfruitful believers are those that do nothing except claim to believe. In John 15, Jesus explains the fate of unfruitful believers... - they will be destroyed.

According to your doctrine all will be in Gods Kingdom except Cat 1. Cat 2, 3 and 4 all are believers and all will be eternally saved. Christ disagrees with you however.

"If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.

If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15)

"And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth,

And he sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and lengthens - how, he does not know.

The earth bears fruit by itself: first a blade, then an ear, then full grain in the ear.

But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come." (Marl 4:26,27)

" And the slave who knew his master's will and did not prepare or do according to his will, will receive many lashes.

But he who did not know, yet did things worthy of stripes, will receive few lashes.

But to everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required from him; and to whom much has been committed, they will ask of him all the more." (Luke 12:47,48)

Originally posted by KellyJay

The gospel of that Jesus was apart of what was prepared from the foundation of the world. The eternal gospel is the only one God has given us. I don't see there being more than one, but the same one going through different periods of time or dispensations of man.

" Father, glorify Your name. Then a voice came out of heaven: I have glorified it and will glorify it again.

The crowd therefore which stood by and heard it said that there had been thunder; others said, An angel has spoken to Him.

Jesus answered and said, This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sake."

( John 12:28 - 30)

Originally posted by sonship
Your advice is rather pompous.

Erased just means it was erased.
Should be simple enough.

Originally posted by divegeester
Talking of simple enough; could you please explain to me what a "dispensational translation" is? Thank you

THE DISCIPLES' NEED
OF A DISPENSATIONAL TRANSFER

In verse 8 the Lord was indicating to His disciples that they should care for the coming of the Holy Spirit upon them and then be His witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and unto the remotest part of the earth. The disciples, however, were occupied with the traditional concept concerning Israel, Moses, and keeping the law. Here, in a brief way, the Lord was telling them that they needed a great transfer, a dispensational transfer. He seemed to be telling them, “You disciples need to be transferred dispensationally. You need to be transferred economically from the Old Testament to the New Testament, from the kingdom of Israel to the kingdom of God, which is the church. Forget Israel and take care of the church. You also need a transfer from the law to Christ, that is, to Me. Instead of Moses and the law, you have Me. You should no longer be keepers of the law; now you should be living witnesses of Me, living witnesses of the resurrected Christ. I am the One speaking to you, not Moses. Is the law with you in such a living way as I am? I am here as the living One, the resurrected One. You were with Me for three and a half years. Then you saw My death and My burial. You even saw My empty tomb, and then you saw Me in resurrection. Right now I am here with you in resurrection. Forget about Moses and the law. Do not be keepers of the law—be My living witnesses.”

The disciples may have had difficulty understanding their need of a dispensational transfer. Many Christians have a problem with this today. When they read this portion of the Word, they do not see the matter of the economical transfer. Many of us also need such a transfer. Although you may have been saved for years, have you ever considered how to be a living witness of Christ? I doubt that many believers have thought about this. Instead, many try to keep the commandments in the New Testament. They desire to be commandment keepers as the lawkeepers, but they may not have the concept that they should be witnesses of the Lord Jesus. Therefore, they need a dispensational transfer.

Although we are New Testament people, we still may have an Old Testament concept. We need to be transferred out of the Old Testament concept into the New Testament economy. This means that we need a transfer out of the law and into Christ. We need a transfer from being law-keepers to being Jesus-witnesses. I hope that the Spirit of revelation will show you that you need such a transfer. The Lord's word indicating the need of a dispensational transfer was also part of His preparation of His disciples.

THE NEED FOR A DISPENSATIONAL TRANSFER

A Transfer from the Old Testament Economy to the New Testament Economy

The book of Acts is very dispensational. The word “dispensational” is, of course, the adjective form of the noun “dispensation.” The reason the book of Acts is dispensational is that it describes a great transfer that is accomplished during a period of transition. This is the transfer from the Old Testament economy to the New Testament economy.

“Economy” is an anglicized form of the Greek word oikonomia, which means dispensation. Hence, economy and dispensation are synonyms, with dispensation being the English equivalent of the Greek word oikonomia.

In the New Testament the word oikonomia denotes an arrangement. God has an arrangement, a household government, a family administration. God's household government, or family arrangement, is what we call His economy. The transfer in the book of Acts is from God's Old Testament arrangement to His New Testament arrangement.

A Transfer from Shadow to Reality

God's Old Testament arrangement was altogether a matter of types, figures, shadows, and prophecies. In other words, the Old Testament arrangement of God was not in reality. Rather, it was a shadow waiting for its fulfillment.

When the Triune God became a man in the incarnation, the transfer from shadow to reality began. Everything in God's old dispensation, or arrangement, was a shadow. But in God's New Testament arrangement we have reality. The transfer from the shadow to the reality began with God's incarnation, that is, with the conception of Jesus, and was completed on the day of Pentecost with the outpouring of the economical Spirit.
Problems concerning the Experience
of the Transfer

Since this dispensational transfer was fully accomplished with the outpouring of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost, all the shadows should have been over. But those whom God chose and used had been raised in the Old Testament dispensation, and they had been saturated with and even constituted of God's Old Testament arrangement. As a result, it was very difficult for them to forsake those things in an absolute way.

Let us take the case of Peter as an illustration. Peter was chosen by the Lord and used by Him to carry out His New Testament economy after He Himself had accomplished the transfer. Peter, however, was saturated with and constituted of the things of the old dispensation. For this reason, when Peter saw the vision of the great sheet in which were four-footed animals, reptiles, and birds, and when a voice told him to rise up, slay, and eat, Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything common and unclean” (10:14). Knowing what the situation would be the Lord had sent an angel to Cornelius with a word concerning Peter. Furthermore, “while Peter was pondering concerning the vision, the Spirit said to him, Behold, three men are seeking you. But rise up and go down and go with them, doubting nothing, because I have sent them” (10:19-20). Peter loved the Lord, and eventually he went to the house of Cornelius. But this was a very difficult thing for Peter to do.

According to the record in Galatians 2, Peter later had further problems concerning the dispensational transfer. Paul tells us that before certain ones came from James, Peter “ate with those of the nations; but when they came, he shrank back and separated himself, fearing those of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy” (Gal. 2:12-13a). Here we see that even after the situation recorded in chapters ten and eleven of Acts, Peter still practiced hypocrisy in not daring to eat with Gentile believers openly in the presence of the brothers who had come from James in Jerusalem. From this we see how difficult it was for Peter to fully experience the dispensational transfer.

I think I may have used the phrase "dispensational transition".
The transition and the transfer are related.

A transition is just moving from one kind of way God manages His household to another.

The transfer is the need for people to adjust to the transition.

Between the church age and the millennial kingdom age, I think there is a transition. And the saints living on the earth will need to be prepared to make the transfer.

Originally posted by sonship
Here's something for you by one of my mentors on a "Dispensational Transfer" as it relates to the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant in the book of Acts.

[b] THE DISCIPLES' NEED
OF A DISPENSATIONAL TRANSFER

In verse 8 the Lord was indicating to His disciples that they should care for the coming of the Holy Spirit ...[text shortened]... we see how difficult it was for Peter to fully experience the dispensational transfer.

[/b]

Originally posted by divegeester
Can't you just give a succinct response to save me reading all this stuff?

Also now you are calling it a dispensational "transfer" rather than "translation", is there a difference?

The result of the preaching of "an eternal gospel" in Rev. 14:6,7 should not be too hard to comprehend.

Some will listen and obey.
Some will not listen and will not obey.
This much should be expected.

The description the result of the two reactions we should expect to see explained at some prophecy about Christ commencing His millennial kingdom reign.

" But WHEN ... the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, AT THAT TIME ... He will sit on the throne of His glory. " (Matt. :25:31)