Originally posted by robbie carrobie
it is a very interesting an astute observation, let me share just one scriptural references with you, for it is relevant
(Ecclesiastes 9:5) . . .For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, . . .
now if we are conscious of nothing at all during death, how is it possible that we sha ...[text shortened]... ns made to roll a huge stone up a gradient, only for it to fall to the bottom again etc etc etc.
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(Ecclesiastes 9:5) . . .For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, . . .
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It is very perculiar that you would go back to the Old Testament book of Ecclesiastes to form your final insights on something which in New Testament has much clearer revelation on.
Ecclesiastes was written mainly concerning the observations of a wise man of things
"under the sun". The oft repeated phrase
"under the sun" indicates that Solomon is expounding his knowledge of the world and life as seen from a human standpoint of the limited realm of temporal earthly existence.
This is proved by his asking the question :
"Who knows if the breath of the children of men, that it goes upward; or the breath of the beasts, that it goes downward? (Ecc. 3:21)
As far as typical human experience is
"under the sun" no one really knows by experience whether he will die and his spirit ascends as opposed to a beast's spirit that it descends. By experience no one living can tell us. So it is a mystery according to human experience.
This limitation upon Solomon's musing makes it untrustworthy to conclude that Ecclesiastes 9:5 should be the last word on what happens to the soul of man upon death. And in light of what Jesus taught, (who is the one who has gone into death and come back again) it is foolish to rely on Ecclesiastes to sum up the more detailed teaching of Christ.
I think you are taking Ecclesiastes out of its fuller biblical context, rejecting the clearer revelation of God for the pre-mature and less clear. I think you are doing this out of preference for a more personally favorable view of death.
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now if we are conscious of nothing at all during death, how is it possible that we shall feel the pain of the so called eternal torment,
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Once again, it is unwise for you take Ecclesiastes as the final authoritative word on the subject. It is wiser for you to take the New Testament revelation on the matter as surpassing Ecclesiastes in clarity. You lift Ecclesiastes above the teaching of Jesus and the New Testament at your own peril here.
Jesus said in the New Testament:
"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (Matt. 10:28)
Firstly, this destroys the Russellite teaching that the soul is the same as the body or the physical blood.
Secondly, appealing to
Ecclesiastes 9:5 to neutralize the fear of an after physical death suffering of the killing of the soul, is exceedingly unwise.
You are saying in essence - "There is no need to fear anything after the body has been killed. That is because Ecclesiastes 9:5 has Solomon telling us that the dead know nothing, that they have no more reward, and that the memory of them is forgotten. "
I would count your reasoning as a kind of rebellion against the teaching of Jesus Christ in favor of a more likable concept found in Solomon's musings about the vanity of life
"under the sun" in this temporal world.
Jesus is teaching that man has authority and power to harm your physical body. But God has an ADDITIONAL authority and power. After your body has been killed He still is able to further harm a man by killing the soul.
Technicalities about what exactly "killing" the soul here is are really beside the point. It should be crystal clear that Christ is teaching us that God has power to inflict something undesirable upon the soul of man after the body has been killed.
Look again at the passage:
"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."
Arguing, as Charles Russell and the Jehovah's Witnesses do, that death is an unconscious annhilation would make NO DIFFERENCE between MAN killing the body and GOD destroying body and soul in Gehenna. The entire point is that there
IS a difference to be respected and even feared.
If man can cast you into Gehenna and God can also cast you into Gehenna and the result is the same, then there is no reason to fear what God can do over what man can do.
The point of your rebellious attempt to place
Ecclesiastes 9:5 as a final word, transcending and clarifying
Matthew 10:28 is actually a revolt against the divine warning to fear God.
Posturing your intepretation up to appear as promoting some OTHER kind of fear of God, I think, is rebellion. Russell is saying in essence
"No, I WILL NOT fear God according to the warning of Jesus. I will instead believe that the dead know nothing like Ecclesiastes says."
It is a foolish attitude. It is an unwise attitude.
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and yes you are correct, this is essentially a Greek model, for there we find many characters who are tortured eternally, for example there is a character who is chained to a rock and the ravens come and eat them up, they replenish themselves only to be eaten up again the next morning, or persons made to roll a huge stone up a gradient, only for it to fall to the bottom again etc etc etc.
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Justifying and rationalizing this rebellion by linking the fear of God with Dante's Inferno is unwise.
This is like arguing -" Well, there cannot be any Devil because it is foolish to think of a little horned guy in a red jump suit with a pitch fork. My, isn't that silly. So then, let's not believe in Satan."
Guilt by association is inadequate here. You should not point to fictional religious literature (or Greek mythology) to try to discourage people from taking the revelation of God in the Bible seriously.
Eternal punishment
06 Aug '09 13:53
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