Eternal punishment

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm stating my beliefs, my faith as it is, you state yours; however,
when I do it, it is some how wrong? I have given safety walk throughs
in places I work where I have to warn off people of the various dangers
they will be working around, and I'm hoping they get a level of fear
about those so they don't do something stupid and get themselves
or someon ...[text shortened]... all of mankind is
in danger I should keep my mouth shut in your opinion, I think not.
Kelly

I'm not suggesting you keep your mouth shut but the way you put it in this post is a little more considerate. You admit that this is your belief. Nothing wrong with that. As you suggest we are all entitled to our own belief. But it is just that. Belief and not undebatable, undeniable fact. Again, as you suggest, we will all ultimately see how this plays out.

As for me I don't have the same fears as you and when you and those of the same faith as you threaten me and others with eternal damnation I will remind you that some are not so easily manipulated.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm stating my beliefs, my faith as it is, you state yours; ...

You should temper your faith with some commonsense. One thing all Christians know, but dont have the guts to apply, is that there is just a handful of absolute truths in the Bible. Some of these are :

- Love God. Thats the God of Israel, Issac and Jacob.
- Love thy neighbour as thyself.
- Believe that Christ came to die for the sins of man.
- Believe that one day he will return to judge us according to our works.

There may be more, but most of the other doctrines are are combination of a few factual Bible passages and lots of speculation, assumptions and guesswork. You may be right and you may be wrong.

The issues of death, hell, judgment, resurrection, reward are not made crystal clear in the Bible. All you know for sure is that Christ will one day reward the righteous and destroy the sinful. The details of how, when, where, who are at best vague.

The day a Christian is prepared to admit that, thats the day he can say he truly appreciates the Bible message. Before that he is just a mouthpiece for one of the hundreds of biased Christian sects.

Originally posted by Ullr
I'm not suggesting you keep your mouth shut but the way you put it in this post is a little more considerate. You admit that this is your belief. Nothing wrong with that. As you suggest we are all entitled to our own belief. But it is just that. Belief and not undebatable, undeniable fact. Again, as you suggest, we will all ultimately see how this plays ...[text shortened]... e and others with eternal damnation I will remind you that some are not so easily manipulated.

We are talking about a subject where all any of us have are beliefs.
According to scripture Hell is where everyone who sins is going to end
up, and you may think that is some how wrong to say, but it is what
it is. According the scripture the wrath of God is being held back right
now against sinners, that too is what it is, now if the topic of Hell
seems a bit much for you I'm not quite sure why you bother reading
what anyone says about the topic?
Kelly

Originally posted by Rajk999
You should temper your faith with some commonsense. One thing all Christians know, but dont have the guts to apply, is that there is just a handful of absolute truths in the Bible. Some of these are :

- Love God. Thats the God of Israel, Issac and Jacob.
- Love thy neighbour as thyself.
- Believe that Christ came to die for the sins of man.
- Believe t ...[text shortened]... ble message. Before that he is just a mouthpiece for one of the hundreds biased Christian sects.

Because you do think those topics are not crystal clear in scripture
does not at all mean others may feel they are very crystal clear and
since they/we/me do feel that way, that we also talk about them as we
do God being a God of love or some of the other things we may agree
on.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
We are talking about a subject where all any of us have are beliefs.
According to scripture Hell is where everyone who sins is going to end
up, and you may think that is some how wrong to say, but it is what
it is. According the scripture the wrath of God is being held back right
now against sinners, that too is what it is, now if the topic of Hell
see ...[text shortened]... uch for you I'm not quite sure why you bother reading
what anyone says about the topic?
Kelly

I bother reading the topic because I find is fascinating, amusing, and annoying all at the same time that some people are so insistent about their beliefs being the only true/correct beliefs that they are quite okay with threatening others with eternal damnation. Yet as you admitted below all it is is our beliefs and this begs the question: if you admit that it is belief and not 100% proven fact then why are you and others so quick to use this belief to scare others into following the same path as you knowing full well in the back of your mind that you could be just as wrong as the rest of us?

Originally posted by Ullr
I bother reading the topic because I find is fascinating, amusing, and annoying all at the same time that some people are so insistent about their beliefs being the only true/correct beliefs that they are quite okay with threatening others with eternal damnation. Yet as you admitted below all it is is our beliefs and this begs the question: if you admit that i ...[text shortened]... ou knowing full well in the back of your mind that you could be just as wrong as the rest of us?

I'm glad your amused, I have not threatened anyone with Hell, I have
warned them about it, if they reject Hell out of hand I doubt they are
at all scared by the warning. Like I said, we all have beliefs about this
topic, I take as a real danger, you find it amusing.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Because you do think those topics are not crystal clear in scripture
does not at all mean others may feel they are very crystal clear and
since they/we/me do feel that way, that we also talk about them as we
do God being a God of love or some of the other things we may agree
on.
Kelly

You think its crystal clear becuase you were TOLD it was by those who 'taught' you a particular doctrine. The JWs believe the opposite to you, and they also think its crystal clear. Neither you nor the JWs are unbiased Bible readers. Your minds are tainted with a particular dogma which you cannot remove.

The Bible says ' the wages of sin is death'. How does 'death' fit in to your belief in 'eternal torment'?

Originally posted by KellyJay
We are talking about a subject where all any of us have are beliefs.
According to scripture Hell is where everyone who sins is going to end
up, and you may think that is some how wrong to say, but it is what
it is. According the scripture the wrath of God is being held back right
now against sinners, that too is what it is, now if the topic of Hell
see ...[text shortened]... uch for you I'm not quite sure why you bother reading
what anyone says about the topic?
Kelly

\

======================
We are talking about a subject where all any of us have are beliefs.
According to scripture Hell is where everyone who sins is going to end
up, and you may think that is some how wrong to say, but it is what
it is.
==================================

Strictly speaking I am pretty sure that Hell or Hades is where EVERYONE who dies has their soul and spirit depart to, as they are separated from the body.

It is the common and popular usage which has made Hell only a place of punishment.

If we die we are we are all going to Hell or Hades, is really the case.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Because you do think those topics are not crystal clear in scripture
does not at all mean others may feel they are very crystal clear and
since they/we/me do feel that way, that we also talk about them as we
do God being a God of love or some of the other things we may agree
on.
Kelly

The God of love could not be insane. Hell is insane. Your God seems to be a savage screwball. If I were I would consider going to a shrink. Something is way wrong with your mind.

Originally posted by joe beyser
I think most people have moved past the fear part as the cornerstone has been laid and the rest of the structure is being built. When I first heard of hell fire I was about 5 years old. My step brother started taking me to sunday school with him. At that age hell fire is a scary thing. It could have easily kept me on the path to whatever teachings that pa ...[text shortened]... never ending, and to me it seems like religeous control by man. Does anyone see this as odd?

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I think most people have moved past the fear part as the cornerstone has been laid and the rest of the structure is being built.
====================================

I am not sure what you mean by cornerstone except that the cornerstone of the Christian church is Christ the Son of God.

We are saved because we believe into Christ. There is not teaching that men are saved because they believe in damnation. It is the Person of Christ that saves us. It is not the acknowledgment of the existence of eternal punishment that saves us.

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When I first heard of hell fire I was about 5 years old. My step brother started taking me to sunday school with him. At that age hell fire is a scary thing.
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It is still as scary matter to be so punished. And I don think people "getting over it" makes the prospect of eternal perdition not true.

Do you think that "getting over it" makes the words of Jesus Christ less true? I don't.

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It could have easily kept me on the path to whatever teachings that particular church was putting out. We moved and I didn't go back to a church until highschool. This makes me wonder if a person really believed in hell fire early on, would that be a contributing factor in choosing to worship or not.
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I think the Holy Spirit is trying throughout our lives to impress us with the need for Jesus Christ. He has many ways of doing that.

If you read the Gospel of John for example, you can see that Jesus did not approach everyone exactly the same way.

I have a book on over 100 Gospel Messages in outline form. By far not all of them touch the matter of eternal punishment.

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The criminal will do things with the idea that he won't get caught. That isn't the same as hell fire as it is taught god knows everything we do. A burn is one of the most painfull things we can experience. Couple our experience of a small burn with the idea that hell fire would completely engulf us with the added twist of it never ending, and to me it seems like religeous control by man. Does anyone see this as odd?
=====================================

I don't like to think about it. I like instead to meditate on the wonderful things Jesus has done and is doing to fulfill God's eternal purpose. The Bible says that judgment is God's "strange work" as if it is strange that God should have to judge man at all.

This punishment was created for the devil and his angels. Man co-shares in it only because He refuses Christ's salvation to take him OUT of the opposition camp of the Devil and his angels. We need a transfer out of that kingdom into the kingdom of the Son of God's love. Then we share His glorious destiny and we do not share the Rebel's miserable destiny prepared for him.

We will go where our leader goes. So I confess Jesus as Lord and Savior. He is the universal Leader to direct us into God's highest and best. And we will never perish forever if we believe into Jesus.

Originally posted by jaywill
Strictly speaking I am pretty sure that Hell or Hades is where EVERYONE who dies has their soul and spirit depart to, as they are separated from the body.

It is the common and popular usage which has made Hell only a place of punishment.

If we die we are we are all going to Hell or Hades, is really the case.

That's interesting. This is not something I would have expected you to say based on your posts.

In Norse mythology (don't know if you care or not) Hel is exactly the place were most people go when they die (with the exception of the chosen slain in battle and Valhalla). But Hel (spelled with a single l) is not a place of torment or misery its just where most people go as the beginning of their afterlife journey. There is however Niflehel where the wicked are punished and tormented. Wickedness however, is defined by a persons actions/deeds in life not by whether or not they believe in or are loyal to any particular deity.

To me that makes a lot more sense.

Live a virtuous life (don't be a scumbag) and let the chips fall where they may. My personal belief is that we create our own version of Hel through our actions and our deeds here in this life not through our religous beliefs.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]====================================
I think most people have moved past the fear part as the cornerstone has been laid and the rest of the structure is being built.
====================================

I am not sure what you mean by cornerstone except that the cornerstone of the Christian church is Christ the Son of God.

We are sa ...[text shortened]... 's highest and best. And we will never perish forever if we believe into Jesus.[/b]

I didn't think of Jesus as a cornerstone but the temple. What I am interested in is whether or not Fear of eternal punishmet was something that helped folks down the particular spritual path they have chosen. In other words, did the fear get our attention early on. Later as people have progressed in their spirituallity the fear subsides as more advanced doctrine takes hold. How much does fear of eternal punishment play the choices we make to become christian. Even if people aren't fearful as they have grown up, did it make an impression on children and have longer lasting consequences on our choices later?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm glad your amused, I have not threatened anyone with Hell, I have
warned them about it, if they reject Hell out of hand I doubt they are
at all scared by the warning. Like I said, we all have beliefs about this
topic, I take as a real danger, you find it amusing.
Kelly

You may doubt that what you have to say scares people all you want. But the reality Kelly is that there are a lot of weak minded and vulnerable fools out there in the world that would be scared. Scared by something that is nothing more than your own personal belief at the end of the day. I'm not suggesting that you are anyone else should change their beliefs but rather be aware and responsible enough to realize that when you tell some people that if they don't believe as you they will suffer eternal torment that you are in fact scaring the ever living s$@t out of them. Not everyone is strong willed and minded enough to make an objective decision when presented with such a terrifying prospect.

And that is the crux of my problem with Christianity. It scares the living crap out of people and then conveniently passes the collection plate.

Originally posted by Ullr
That's interesting. This is not something I would have expected you to say based on your posts.

In Norse mythology (don't know if you care or not) Hel is exactly the place were most people go when they die (with the exception of the chosen slain in battle and Valhalla). But Hel (spelled with a single l) is not a place of torment or misery its just where mo ...[text shortened]... of Hel through our actions and our deeds here in this life not through our religous beliefs.

So when you spoke of ancestors and gods you meant Norse gods.

You too will be one of the ancestors to some future person who says they are here because of ancestors and Norse gods?

What will you offer them?

Originally posted by joe beyser
I didn't think of Jesus as a cornerstone but the temple. What I am interested in is whether or not Fear of eternal punishmet was something that helped folks down the particular spritual path they have chosen. In other words, did the fear get our attention early on. Later as people have progressed in their spirituallity the fear subsides as more advanced d ...[text shortened]... d it make an impression on children and have longer lasting consequences on our choices later?

I am thankful that I received a realistic teaching about eternal punishment as a young child.

I am thankful for any and all truths from the Bible which were faithfully related to me.

At an appropriate time I would also read those portions of the Bible to any child of my own.

As I would teach a child it is well to fear the consequences of stealing, or cheating in school, or doing drugs, or murder, or any crime, so I would also teach a child of the consequences of ignoring or refusing to accept the Lord Jesus as Savior.

I have been commissioned and sent by Jesus Christ to tell people about salvation. Of course that must include my own children.