Originally posted by @fmfThe Messianic prophecies are in the Old Testament, which existed long before Jesus Christ arrived on earth. Isaiah chapter 53 is a great example of a Messianic prophecy that was written around 700 B.C. Are you suggesting Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament were created or tampered with after Jesus Christ was crucified and Resurrected? Or are you suggesting that people who lived during Christ’s time on earth (and even Christ Himself) tailored their actions to conform to the Old Testament prophecies? Or are you suggesting the writers of the Gospels (and other books in the New Testament) altered what they saw and heard to comport with Old Testament prophecies?
Were the people who very consciously created and finessed the new literature for the post-Judaism breakaway religion/cult of personality - during the decades and centuries after Jesus's execution - aware or unaware of the prophecies?
Originally posted by @romans1009Of course I know what a prophecy is. I am a Christan, Episcopalian, to be exact. I, too, find Messianic prophecy to be compelling.
You do know what a prophecy is, don’t you? It’s much more than a “story.” It’s a prediction of a future event. When those predicted future events come true against very long odds, that is compelling.
To those who do not believe in the Bible, however, it's just another book. At best, they think these people who wrote it were just making stuff up, at worst, that they were purposefully creating propaganda to support their attempted control over people.
Keep in mind that I do not disagree with you. I'm just trying to "catch you up" on this thread that has now gone on for dozens of pages.
Compelling for you. Compelling for me. Not so much for those who do not believe in the Bible or in God.
Originally posted by @romans1009I would assume he means the second and/or the third, rather than the first.
The Messianic prophecies are in the Old Testament, which existed long before Jesus Christ arrived on earth. Isaiah chapter 53 is a great example of a Messianic prophecy that was written around 700 B.C. Are you suggesting Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament were created or tampered with after Jesus Christ was crucified and Resurrected? Or are you su ...[text shortened]... in the New Testament) altered what they saw and heard to comport with Old Testament prophecies?
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Originally posted by @romans1009I'm not really interested in your dj2becker-style counter-questions: just an answer. I am not a Christian, so you need not worry.
The Messianic prophecies are in the Old Testament, which existed long before Jesus Christ arrived on earth. Isaiah chapter 53 is a great example of a Messianic prophecy that was written around 700 B.C. Are you suggesting Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament were created or tampered with after Jesus Christ was crucified and Resurrected? Or are you su ...[text shortened]... in the New Testament) altered what they saw and heard to comport with Old Testament prophecies?
I am simply asking you if you think the writers and editors of the Bible - and ultimately the corporate 'owners' that decided on the various canons too - were aware or unaware of the prophecies [and Hebrew mythology more generally].
It's a simple yes-no question. I will make whatever I will of what you say. I'm not here to divest you of your belief in the Bible.
Originally posted by @fmfYou needn’t be so defensive. I’m simply trying to understand where you’re coming from and what your thought processes are. If by “writers of the Bible,” you’re referring to the New Testament, that’s a question that can’t be answered, imo, with any authority. The Pharisees of Christ’s time, as well as His disciples, certainly did not expect the Messiah to be a “suffering servant” and to be crucified, even though that was prophesied in the Old Testament. I believe the books of the Bible as they exist today are an accurate representation of what was written by the original authors, though one has to be careful in choosing a translation.
I'm not really interested in your dj2becker-style counter-questions: just an answer. I am not a Christian, so you need not worry.
I am simply asking you if you think the writers and editors of the Bible - and ultimately the corporate 'owners' that decided on the various canons too - were aware or unaware of the prophecies.
It's a simple yes-no question. ...[text shortened]... ll make whatever I will of what you say. I'm not here to divest you of your belief in the Bible.
Originally posted by @romans1009I'm not being defensive in the slightest; I'm simply letting you off the hook if you might be inclined to get all het up on my account. If you are genuinely interested in "what [my] thought processes are", read the thread.
You needn’t be so defensive. I’m simply trying to understand where you’re coming from and what your thought processes are.
Originally posted by @romans1009Obviously, you kind of need to answer "no" and/or say something like "that’s a question that can’t be answered", as indeed you did. Certainly, answering "yes" would be a bit inconvenient. Do you know anything for sure about the writers and the editors over the four centuries that the Bible was in the process of being 'finalized' or are you simply certain that what they wrote is 'true'.
If by “writers of the Bible,” you’re referring to the New Testament, that’s a question that can’t be answered, imo, with any authority.
Originally posted by @fmfYou might also consider what advantage was gained by early Christians who claimed to have seen Jesus Christ alive after His crucifixion. They were persecuted, tortured and killed for refusing to deny what they had seen. If they were lying and they did not see Christ alive after His crucifixion, why endure all of that? Why die for a lie?
I'm not being defensive in the slightest; I'm simply letting you off the hook if you might be inclined to get all het up on my account. If you are genuinely interested in "what [my] thought processes are", read the thread.
Originally posted by @romans1009Like I said, if you are genuinely interested in "what [my] thought processes are", read the thread.
You might also consider what advantage was gained by early Christians who claimed to have seen Jesus Christ alive after His crucifixion. They were persecuted, tortured and killed for refusing to deny what they had seen. If they were lying and they did not see Christ alive after His crucifixion, why endure all of that? Why die for a lie?
<Obviously, you kind of need to answer "no" and/or say something like "that’s a question that can’t be answered", as indeed you did. Certainly, answering "yes" would be a bit inconvenient.>
I answered your question honestly. Certainly the Pharisees were learned men and knew the Scriptures, so one *should* be able to assume they knew the Old Testament prophecies. But if they did, how did they (and the authors of the Gospels) miss that Jesus Christ was the Messiah who was written about many centuries earlier?
Originally posted by @romans1009Four centuries? Where do you get that?
"Four centuries". It's a figure of speech, that's all. The years were 393, 397, 414, 419 etc. You can look it up.
And are you referring to the Old Testament or the New Testament (or both?)
What do you think I have been referring to? I mean seriously. Are you reading these short little posts of mine?
Originally posted by @romans1009It's just as well I didn't spend any time indulging you by typing out stuff for you that is readily available on this very thread. One wonders why you fired off several questions then.
Not that interested in what you think 🙂