Evolutionists Appropriating ID?

Originally posted by KellyJay
That also should tell you that life is very difficult to maintain....

Yet life abounds. How do you explain that? Your argument here contradicts the obvious.

I don't believe.....
Fine, you don't believe it. But you are yet to provide a valid argument for your lack of belief. Oddly enough you expect everyone else not to believe it either (for no apparent reason) and have to come up with 'explanations' for why they do actually believe it other than the possibility that it makes sense to them.
If your lack of belief was based on logic, then you should be able to argue your point and articulate your reasons. Instead you have to resort to fallacies (such as the false dichotomy you used earlier) or vague statements about how 'its just not possible' and 'don't believe' without any actual data to back this up.
Worst of all, our observations of nature clearly contradict your claims and you are forced to then believe that God is carefully protecting life and guiding it in some way and that every time a new dog breed appears you are forced to assume that God must have preplanned it all.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yet life abounds. How do you explain that? Your argument here contradicts the obvious.

[b]I don't believe.....
Fine, you don't believe it. But you are yet to provide a valid argument for your lack of belief. Oddly enough you expect everyone else not to believe it either (for no apparent reason) and have to come up with 'explanations' for why they a new dog breed appears you are forced to assume that God must have preplanned it all.[/b]

I think the idea is not that God preplans every action, but that God has placed laws in place that limits what changes to His creation that can possibly take place. These laws prevents plants from changing into animals and the reverse from happening since God has placed the design blueprint right inside his creations. We have the discovery of the DNA molecule as evidence.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God!

Originally posted by KellyJay
I don't believe anyone who believes in evolution actually does so against their
own will knowing its wrong. I think they ...

What you believe other people believe is surely irrelevant ... why not find out so that you know what they believe?

This forum is ideal!

Originally posted by googlefudge
Smug git.

Your level of exasperation now equals mine. 😞

Originally posted by twhitehead
That is blatantly untrue. Everyone knows that there are literally billions of different types of doors in existence with different frame thickness's. In fact, I could easily build a door with any frame thickness between say 1mm and 1m. That's a continuous range including an infinite number of possible values, none of which are 'not right'.

[b]If you’re rbles even though you have no idea how many marbles of each colour are in the bag.

[/b]Yea billions of types of doors, and if you screw up getting the frame right the
door will not work correctly, thick or thin really don't matter if the door and frame
don't work together.
Kelly

Originally posted by RJHinds
I think the idea is not that God preplans every action, but that God has placed laws in place that limits what changes to His creation that can possibly take place. These laws prevents plants from changing into animals and the reverse from happening since God has placed the design blueprint right inside his creations. We have the discovery of the DNA molecule as evidence.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God!

What do you mean 'WE' white man? It was real scientists who made that discovery, not bible thumpers. If bible thumpers had been in charge, those discoveries would never in a million years been made, the grant proposals would have been put down with vengeance and the scientist daring to ask for such a project would have been ex communicated from his church.

If your god set up the system of physics then what in the hell is wrong with the idea the Earth is 4+ billion years old and life proceeded according to the evolutionary scenario?

You are just making up crap to follow your usual line of illogic.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yea billions of types of doors, and if you screw up getting the frame right the
door will not work correctly, thick or thin really don't matter if the door and frame
don't work together.
Kelly

Nevertheless your claim was blatantly untrue. Shifting the goal posts (or door frame in this instance) gets you nowhere. The fact is that there is an infinite number of door / frame combinations that do actually work. Your suggestion that there is only one special perfect combination is simply untrue.
You said "If you’re just winging it, making changes until you get it right, things will die." Yet carpenters frequently do just that ie make changes till they get it right. I have made a few cupboard doors my self by this method. If you look around your environment I think you will find that not only is every door slightly different and none of them are an exact fit.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I don't believe anyone who believes in evolution actually does so against their
own will knowing its wrong. I think they cling to it no matter what questions
are put to them and will with every question cling to anything that may
support their position. They also have to do it without claiming to have beliefs
or faith too in most cases.
Kelly

So you say, yet the evidence suggests the opposite. I think you will find that on this forum, most of those who accept evolution are perfectly willing to discuss it in detail and answer open and honestly any questions about it or address any issues that are brought up. If you are not satisfied with any of the answers given then feel free to explain or ask more. The creationists on the other hand almost invariably resort to fallacies/ dishonesty or in your case avoidance and vagueness. Its easy to see who is clinging to smoke and who has a solid position.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yea billions of types of doors, and if you screw up getting the frame right the
door will not work correctly, thick or thin really don't matter if the door and frame
don't work together.
Kelly[/b]

A couple of months ago, I fitted five new doors in my house. I had 3 different frame sizes (actually, even the frames that were the 'same' size did not seem identical). One of the doors was a folding/sliding one. All the doors were slightly different, I made some adjustments on all of them in my amateur, haphazard way and yet they all seem to work ok, despite every one having at least one fault in my workmanship.

If those doors were in some sort of struggle for existence with each other then no doubt some would have fallen by the wayside. However at least one of them would have survived, despite not being a perfect example of a door.

--- Penguin.

Sorry, double-post. First time I've done that!

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by KellyJay
A lot of credit for natural selection is given when in my opinion it really
resembles more beliefs surrounding that one than facts. The credit it seems
flows to it by giving it credit for the paths evolution supposedly took in getting
all life to where we see it today. Chance supposedly gave life all its
evolutionary path choices promoting healthier, st ...[text shortened]... ch is there is
a reason for life has to do with something or someone other than nothing.
Kelly

Your post clearly shows that you do not actually understand what evidence actually
exist for evolution, or how it works, and thus your opinion is wrong.

That's ok as long as you are prepared to actually rectify that.

If your not then you will just remain in ignorance and remain wrong.

This website ... http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_01 ... is a great
source for learning the basics of evolution and shows a tiny portion of the mass of
evidence there is for it.


The basic mistake you are making (it seems to me) is that you are making the false
assumption that us humans (and presumably everything else currently alive) were
intended to exist from the beginning. Which is a very biblical/Christian/theist attitude
and mistake because the people who wrote the holy books thought that the whole
universe was created for us by a god or gods.

WE were the POINT of the universe.

If you have this view evolution is troubling because it doesn't take long to realise that the
odds (at the start of evolution billions of years ago) of US appearing are so astronomically
small that it beggars belief that we ever formed.

However that's only a problem IF you think we were destined to be formed in the first place.

The classic example is tossing a coin.

The odds of any sequence of coin throws is 1 in 2^n where n is the number of coin throws.
as you can readily see the odds rapidly become enormous. (odds become approximate above
50 throws)

for 0005 throws the odds are 1 in 32
for 0010 throws the odds are 1 in 1,024
for 0050 throws the odds are 1 in 1,125,899,906,842,620
for 0100 throws the odds are 1 in 1.26765E+30
for 1000 throws the odds are 1 in 1.07151E+301

And beyond that Excel can't cope with numbers that large.

So the odds of getting any sequence of heads and tails from tossing a coin 1000 times is the
astronomically small 1 in 1.07E+301
If you were to write down a sequence of H and T 1000 characters long and then start tossing one
coin per second and you started at the beginning of the universe you probably would not have
had that sequence you wrote down today, 13 billion years later.


However you can pick up a coin right now and throw it 1000 times and generate a sequence.

And the odds of you getting A sequence are 1... certainty in other words.




The mistake you make (and most theists make) is assuming that we were intended.

That life could only be like it is and has been and could not be anything else.

This is wrong.

And also arrogant.

Assuming that the entire universe was made for our benefit, and that we are the point of it all.
or even assuming that there IS a point to it all.

Robbie is excessively fond of these "life is too improbably to form by chance" arguments and
all of them fail for the same reasons.

First he assumes that the result that actually happened is the intended result and thus starts out
by trying to work out the odds of that event happening.

And then he screws that up by knowing nothing about biology chemistry and physics and basing his
calculations on atoms randomly throwing themselves together like a reverse explosion rather than
how chemical reactions actually happen and how organic molecules actually work.


If you are not prepared to accept anything that contradicts what you think the bible says then you
are being intellectually dishonest. It doesn't matter what the evidence is you will dismiss it out of
hand if it contradicts your pre-held view.

If you are prepared to accept evidence and reason then I suggest you read the site I linked at
the top of the page.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Nevertheless your claim was blatantly untrue. Shifting the goal posts (or door frame in this instance) gets you nowhere. The fact is that there is an infinite number of door / frame combinations that do actually work. Your suggestion that there is only one special perfect combination is simply untrue.
You said "If you’re just winging it, making changes u ou will find that not only is every door slightly different and none of them are an exact fit.

"Having the proper thickness or length is a big deal, like framing a door you
simply get it right or you do not." That is what I said, you screw up the door
frame your door will not work properly. You want to go on and on about that?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
"Having the proper thickness or length is a big deal, like framing a door you
simply get it right or you do not." That is what I said, you screw up the door
frame your door will not work properly. You want to go on and on about that?
Kelly

And when a mutation is detrimental, the organism tends to die. Natural selection throws away an awful lot of doors. But when it makes one that fits, all the ones copied from it will also fit. Until the door frame changes again.

It's not a good analogy though, since doors do not self-replicate, or compete for resources.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by sonhouse
What do you mean 'WE' white man? It was real scientists who made that discovery, not bible thumpers. If bible thumpers had been in charge, those discoveries would never in a million years been made, the grant proposals would have been put down with vengeance and the scientist daring to ask for such a project would have been ex communicated from his church. ...[text shortened]... e evolutionary scenario?

You are just making up crap to follow your usual line of illogic.

The problem is that God said He made the sun and the Earth; and they are only 3 days apart, with the Earth being created first, moron.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Originally posted by twhitehead
Nevertheless your claim was blatantly untrue. Shifting the goal posts (or door frame in this instance) gets you nowhere. The fact is that there is an infinite number of door / frame combinations that do actually work. Your suggestion that there is only one special perfect combination is simply untrue.
You said "If you’re just winging it, making changes u ...[text shortened]... ou will find that not only is every door slightly different and none of them are an exact fit.

Don't forget that carpenters are intelligent beings; evolution is not!
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!