18 Jun '12 21:37>
Originally posted by RJHindsSmug git.
[b]Your claim is dismissed then.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! 😏[/b]
Originally posted by googlefudgetake it easy man. It's not like he doesn't deserve it , but you dont want to be seen to be stooping to his level.
Smug git.
Originally posted by PenguinA lot of credit for natural selection is given when in my opinion it really
[b]Where chance really cannot be given credit
Who's giving credit to chance? It plays a small (important, but still small) part in the process.
your(sic) left with something that needs or requires a guiding force.
Yes, natural selection.
And around we go again...
--- Penguin (dropping in briefly)[/b]
Originally posted by twhiteheadI believe in brute facts, I do not see evolution, or those things that have to be
I believe that we have agreed in the past, that some brute facts are necessary. (am I mistaking you for someone else in this regard?)
If some brute facts exist, then are they 'chance'?
Would you describe physical laws as 'chance'?
I think we all accept the existence of 'guiding forces'. After all, nobody disputes that gravity exists even though we ma ...[text shortened]... creationists always try to set up a false dichotomy fallacy of 'chance vs intelligence'?
Originally posted by googlefudgeI don't believe anyone who believes in evolution actually does so against their
Well that wasn't actually the point.
We get that you creationists don't believe evolution is possible and use pseudo-scientific
arguments about probability to try to support your position.
And every so often one of us will refute those arguments....
but that isn't what happened here.
What was suggested was that WE [skeptics/scientists/'evolut ...[text shortened]... e mock the idea because someone so stupid as to make that argument deserves nothing else.
Originally posted by KellyJayYou are avoiding the questions as always. Why cant you ever have an honest discussion? Do you accept that brute facts are not correctly described as 'chance'?
I believe in brute facts, I do not see evolution, or those things that have to be
true to make evolution as true for getting all the life we see today coming up
from a single simple lifeform.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayThere is an enormous variety of life forms on earth today. The fossil record shows an equally enormous variety in the past. Why do you assume that every turn except the ones actually taken will lead to death? Its like claiming that a dog breeder can only possibly end up with a grey hound and any other breed he tries to get will die for sure. Yet we see many many breeds of dogs and there are presumably many many more possible breeds that we have not got, but could have.
.... and when any wrong turn or path can lead to death so I fail to see why so many believe in it.
Originally posted by twhiteheadI believe in brute facts yes, I do NOT believe that everything people CLAIM to be
You are avoiding the questions as always. Why cant you ever have an honest discussion? Do you accept that brute facts are not correctly described as 'chance'?
Would you describe gravity as 'chance'? Would you describe gravity as a 'guiding force'?
Originally posted by twhiteheadHaving the proper thickness or length is a big deal, like framing a door you simply
There is an enormous variety of life forms on earth today. The fossil record shows an equally enormous variety in the past. Why do you assume that every turn except the ones actually taken will lead to death? Its like claiming that a dog breeder can only possibly end up with a grey hound and any other breed he tries to get will die for sure. Yet we see ma ntinue to think that your conclusions are valid and that everyone else must therefore be wrong.
Originally posted by twhiteheadBreeding dogs to get more dogs does not violate God's law set down in Genesis. However, if you are trying to get some think other than a dog, you are bound to fail.
There is an enormous variety of life forms on earth today. The fossil record shows an equally enormous variety in the past. Why do you assume that every turn except the ones actually taken will lead to death? Its like claiming that a dog breeder can only possibly end up with a grey hound and any other breed he tries to get will die for sure. Yet we see ma ntinue to think that your conclusions are valid and that everyone else must therefore be wrong.
Originally posted by KellyJayHaving the proper thickness or length is a big deal, like framing a door you simply get it right or you do not. If you’re just winging it, making changes until you get it right, things will die.
Having the proper thickness or length is a big deal, like framing a door you simply
get it right or you do not. If you’re just winging it, making changes until you get it
right, things will die. So I do not believe evolution is a good way to get veins, or
valves and so on. There are just too many things that have to have proper timing
to go right, and t ...[text shortened]... right. I don't believe that is what could happen and have life develop properly
period.
Kelly
Originally posted by PenguinYes, wild things die off all the time. That also should tell you that life is very
[b]Having the proper thickness or length is a big deal, like framing a door you simply get it right or you do not. If you’re just winging it, making changes until you get it right, things will die.
Have you not noticed that in the wild, things die all the time?!? This is why most animals have litters of multiple offspring: most of the young do not sur ...[text shortened]... say, it is a way that involves lots of death, which is exactly what we see.
--- Penguin.[/b]
Originally posted by KellyJayWhy do you always find it so difficult to answer a simple question? I tend to assume dishonesty on your part, but there may be another reason. If there is, can you explain?
I believe in brute facts yes, I do NOT believe that everything people CLAIM to be
true that gives credit to evolution is true or factual brute or otherwise.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayThat is blatantly untrue. Everyone knows that there are literally billions of different types of doors in existence with different frame thickness's. In fact, I could easily build a door with any frame thickness between say 1mm and 1m. That's a continuous range including an infinite number of possible values, none of which are 'not right'.
Having the proper thickness or length is a big deal, like framing a door you simply
get it right or you do not.
Originally posted by KellyJayTo me, it would take more faith to believe that everything created itself and then life accidently began by some unkown process that no one has ever seen happen, than to believe that there is some intelligent designer God with the awesome power to create life. With evolution, one has to imagine how it might have happened. With creation, the creator tells how he did it. And over several thousand years this presentation of the creation has yet to be proven wrong. I'll put my money on creation.
Yes, wild things die off all the time. That also should tell you that life is very
difficult to maintain and evolutionist believe that it’s so strong that it can go through
time from a very simple beginning and change ever so slowly becoming more and
more functionally complex all the while. All of this going on in hostile environments
those do not lend has a great deal of
faith and a strong belief system, its a pretty story nothing more.
Kelly