Originally posted by knightmeister I agree that God is love and religion is man made to an extent. But if God was really real wouldn't he personally come and visit us and tell us which one he thought was the closest to the truth? If God was real he would show us that suffering and death could be overcome. He would also say catagoricallY while he was here that only he was the ruth, life and the way. Dream on ...it'll never happen!
You agree that God is love, yet you seemingly deny his existence. Please clarify.
Is there any rational reason why Atheists, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, etc. cannot focus on Truth and Love? There seems to be a "forest for the trees" problem here.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne Is there any rational reason why Atheists, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, etc. cannot focus on Truth and Love? There seems to be a "forest for the trees" problem here.
Not really. Truth is what they're all arguing about.
Originally posted by whodey So if God were real he would personally come down and show us how to overcome suffering and death...........Christ comes to mind. Faith goes beyond believing that there is a God. The Bible is full of examples of people knowing there is a God and then loosing or not placing their faith in him anyway. Therefore, God is not interested in "proving" he exists, rather, he is searching for true faith in him.
I was being sarcastic . I knew I was refering to Christ. You need to get a handle on satire....
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne You agree that God is love, yet you seemingly deny his existence. Please clarify.
Ever heard of a rhetorical question? Satire? Sarcasm? The point I'm making is that these are exactly the sorts of things you would expect a real living God to do...and guess what? He did? If Jesus had never been around you would have said where is this God? Why didn't he visit us? If there is something after death why doesn't he come down and prove it? Why doesn't he tell us which is the truth, life and the way??? The point is that he DID. He's there staring us in the face all the time,it's just we've gotten so used to it we can't see it.
Originally posted by knightmeister Ever heard of a rhetorical question? Satire? Sarcasm? The point I'm making is that these are exactly the sorts of things you would expect a real living God to do...and guess what? He did? If Jesus had never been around you would have said where is this God? Why didn't he visit us? If there is something after death why doesn't he come down and prove it ...[text shortened]... taring us in the face all the time,it's just we've gotten so used to it we can't see it.
No reason to take offense or assume that you're talking to an idiot. Evidently I wasn't the only one who didn't see your post as sarcasm. Sometimes it's difficult to tell. That's why I asked for clarification. You have to admit that there are many people who want their "proof" as something more tangible than a series of tales handed down over a couple of thousand years.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne No reason to take offense or assume that you're talking to an idiot. Evidently I wasn't the only one who didn't see your post as sarcasm. Sometimes it's difficult to tell. That's why I asked for clarification. You have to admit that there are many people who want their "proof" as something more tangible than a series of tales handed down over a couple of thousand years.
I wasn't especially offended to be honest. Having gone back and re read my initial post I think it's blatantly obvious I'm being sarcastic because I say "he would have said something like I am the truth the life and the way" . I would only say something like this if I had no knowledge at all of the Bible and no idea that Jesus was supposed to have made these claims in which case one could ask what I am doing making posts on this subject. I presume you are aware Jesus made these exclusive claims? In which case you would either think I was really dumb or being sarcastic. If you didn't know that Jesus made these claims then you need to go away and investigate things a bit more before you asking the questions you are asking in this thread.
It's like when Atheists ask "what makes Christianity special?" I think to myself....urm (sarcasm) God visiting us in human form , death being overcome , ressurection from the dead etc etc? How special do you want it to get?
Originally posted by knightmeister I wasn't especially offended to be honest. Having gone back and re read my initial post I think it's blatantly obvious I'm being sarcastic because I say "he would have said something like I am the truth the life and the way" . I would only say something like this if I had no knowledge at all of the Bible and no idea that Jesus was supposed to have mad ...[text shortened]... being overcome , ressurection from the dead etc etc? How special do you want it to get?
I'm not so sure the claims are as exclusive as you seem to think they are. I've posted this elsewhere, but I'd like to hear your thoughts:
Here's an interesting line of inquiry regarding the oft-cited John 14:6:
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.
Jesus says he IS "the way, the truth, and the life". Try reading the second sentence by substituting Jesus with what He says He IS - "No one comes to the Father, except through the way, the truth, and the life".
Here's another interesting line of inquiry: Jesus asks one to follow the will of the Father. If one follows the will of the Father, is he not also following what Jesus asks of him? Whether he professes to follow Jesus or not? So, is he not a follower of Jesus? If one doesn't follow the will of the Father, is he following what Jesus asks of him? Whether he professes to follow Jesus or not? So, is he a follower of Jesus?
If Jesus is Love, it would seem to reason that one can get to the Father through Love without invoking the name of Jesus.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne I'm not so sure the claims are as exclusive as you seem to think they are. I've posted this elsewhere, but I'd like to hear your thoughts:
[b] Here's an interesting line of inquiry regarding the oft-cited John 14:6:
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.
Jesus says he IS "the wa ...[text shortened]... eason that one can get to the Father through Love without invoking the name of Jesus.
I agree entirely with your final point about following the way of love . I think if you follow the way of love then you will automatically be on the right track and be following Jesus without realising it. One difficulty is knowing exactly what love is. Really it has to be the kind of gritty , self sacrificing , compassionate and radical life changing love that Jesus modelled for us for it to be worth anything.
I don't agree with your interpretation of scripture. There is no doubt whatsoever that Jesus was refering explicitly to himself when talking about the truth life and the way and seeing himself as a channel between God and man. Remember all that stuff about the bread being his body or the vine and the branches? What about St Paul's talk about living "in Christ" . Or "wherever there are 2/3 or more gathered in my name there will I be amongst them".There are many more. Once you realise that this kind of talk is absolutely NOT , I repeat NOT, meant to be metaphorical , or symbolic in anyway whatsoever you will realise that what Christ was talking about was a REAL living presence in a literal sense. EG - The Holy Spirit. This is the only thing that makes Christianity stand out. No other faith makes the claim of the incarnation of God and his continued living presence with us. You may disagree and think this to be nonsense but don't ever kid yourself that Jesus is saying anything less. "I AM the way , the truth , and the life , no-one comes to the father except THROUGH me" He actually meant through!
Originally posted by knightmeister I agree entirely with your final point about following the way of love . I think if you follow the way of love then you will automatically be on the right track and be following Jesus without realising it. One difficulty is knowing exactly what love is. Really it has to be the kind of gritty , self sacrificing , compassionate and radical life changing ...[text shortened]... nd the life , no-one comes to the father except THROUGH me" He actually meant through!
I don't think we're far apart 🙂 Try to have an open mind in reading the following.
Let's say God created man with two desires: one for the self and the other for Truth. Let's also say that God created man with a force that decreases the desire for the self and increases the desire for Truth. Let's say further that God created a manifestation of that force and placed it on Earth.
If one were to follow this force and abandon the self for Truth without acknowledging the name of the manifestation, would one not be following the way of the Father? I've known many who call themselves Christian, cry 'Lord, Lord' and do good works, but do not follow the way of the Father. Which do you believe is being asked?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne I don't think we're far apart 🙂 Try to have an open mind in reading the following.
Let's say God created man with two desires: one for the self and the other for Truth. Let's also say that God created man with a force that decreases the desire for the self and increases the desire for Truth. Let's say further that God created a manifestation of that ...[text shortened]... ood works, but do not follow the way of the Father. Which do you believe is being asked?
I think we are being asked to "follow the way of the Father" and the "force" you speak about is described very clearly in the New T. and in the Christian tradition. I agree that calling out "Lord Lord .." is no guarantee that someone is following love. However, you started the thread with questions about how Christianity (or any religion) can have exclusive claims. My reasoning would be that if God is actually "alive" and has influence in the world (rather than just being a nice idea) then we would have seen evidence of his activity and presence on earth. What Jesus said and did in his life is exactly the kind of radical , challenging stuff you would expect from a real living God. He quite clearly and intentionally said that HE would judge and redeem the world and that HE was the son of the living God. Not Buddha . Not Mohammed. Not Abraham or Ghandi. Jesus talked about himself in ways that no human being has the faintest right to , unless of course he WAS exactly who he said he was. If he wasn't then we can consign him to the status of mentally unwell.
This is CS LEWIS's point, that Jesus never intended to be ambiguous or leave any grey areas whatsoever. He put himself on the line because he wants to put us on the line. That's what truth looks like , it doesn't pull any punches or patronise other faiths by pretending to be something it isn't. It all depends what you are looking for , a living God or a religion.
Originally posted by knightmeister I think we are being asked to "follow the way of the Father" and the "force" you speak about is described very clearly in the New T. and in the Christian tradition. I agree that calling out "Lord Lord .." is no guarantee that someone is following love. However, you started the thread with questions about how Christianity (or any religion) can have excl ...[text shortened]... ng it isn't. It all depends what you are looking for , a living God or a religion.
Perhaps one's desire for having an exclusive God is borne not of Truth, but from the self. A desire to make one's self important that has pride as it's foundation. Perhaps that's what Truth looks like.
Exclusive claim to God
13 Nov '06 20:03
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