Caissad4,
I have not been able to have you explain why my claim of God is is extraordinary.
I think the more extraordinary claim is that there is no life which is the highest life above which a greater life cannot be.
I think it is not more extraordinary that there is a Person above which a higher Person can never be. If you were to say that there is no greatest Person I would think that to be the more extraordinary claim.
An analogy - Hamlet is a great play. In the play of Hamlet, Hamlet is perhaps the greatest character. However the one who wrote the play, Shakespeare is greater then his character Hamlet.
As Hamlet could not go to the attic and find Shakespeare the play writer so unless God made Himself known to us we could not know Him. The only way Hamlet could know of the writer of the play is if Shakespeare wrote into the play that he made himself known to his character Hamlet.
I think the analogy is useful but not exactly parallel.
@sonship saidOnce again you have failed to provide extraordinary proof for your extraordinary claim. Please try again.
Caissad4,
I have not been able to have you explain why my claim of God is is extraordinary.
I think the more extraordinary claim is that there is no life which is the highest life above which a greater life cannot be.
I think it is not more extraordinary that there is a Person above which a higher Person can never be. If you were to say that there is ...[text shortened]... himself known to his character Hamlet.
I think the analogy is useful but not exactly parallel.
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@Rajk999
You and FMF are pulling the thread off its subject.
I will only offer limited comment made to lean towards the subject of the thread.
If that you what you believe then your God is evil.
I said eternal punishment is retribution and not remedial.
I said it was vengeance and a revelation to the rebel that He is God.
My ground for this could be seen here:
"And to you who are being afflicted, rest with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire,
Rendering vengeance to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 1:7,8)
Notice the words - "rendering VENGEANCE".
Now continue with verses 9,10.
"They will pay the penalty ..."
The penalty of what?
"They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction ..." (v9a)
This is not the lost of being or the lost of existence. It is the lost of well-being - the destruction forever of well-being as a penalty.
Your doctrine is evil. Your organisation is evil and Satanic.
I did not write Second Thessalonians 1:7-9. I believe the Apostle's word there though.
Now I do not like to present only the negative side of that passage. So this time I will quote it all the way down to its marvelous positive side for the saved.
And to you who are being afflicted, rest with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire,
Rendering vengeance to those who do not know God and tot hose who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength
When He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed (because out testimony to you was believed) in that day." (2 Thess. 1:7-10)
@sonship saidHow is this supernatural hatred and vengeance morally coherent?
The moral purpose of eternal punishment is retribution, vengeance, that the rebel would know the truth - that He is God.
There is punishment which is remedial to secure the correction of the sinner. Eternal punishment is not remedial. It is God letting you know His hatred for sin.
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Once again you have failed to provide extraordinary proof for your extraordinary claim. Please try again.
s
I never said I was going to offer proof, extraordinary or not.
So saying I failed means nothing to me.
YOU have failed to prove that "God is" is an extraordinary claim to begin with. You won't even try.
It is good enough that we know we are on the right track to believe that Jesus Christ is truthful in His words and deeds. And it is good enough that we are seem on the right track to believe His extraordinary life is the best rationale for His extraordinary claims.
The human mind if it wants can always create a reason not to trust God. To have absolute proof of anything you would have to be omniscient yourself knowing everything. None of us humans are omniscient ourselves.
So it is good enough to trust that we are on the right track to believe in God, especially when we have Someone in history who is a candidate for that title MORE SO then any other person you might name, I think.
Why is "God is" an extraordinary claim ?
Why is "God is" an extraordinary claim?
@sonship saidRetribution? According to you their sin was that they are not Christians. Your God is going to torment people for eternity for that? If that makes sense to you then you are as evil as the God in which your believe.
@Rajk999
You and FMF are pulling the thread off its subject.
I will only offer limited comment made to lean towards the subject of the thread.
If that you what you believe then your God is evil.
I said eternal punishment is retribution and not remedial.
I said it was vengeance and a revelation to the rebel that He is God.
My ground ...[text shortened]... o have believed (because out testimony to you was believed) in that day." (2 Thess. 1:7-10) [/quote]
That is not the God of Israel. That is the God of Witness Lee. Both you and WL will be cast into the lake for fire for preaching that nonsense.
@sonship saidMe not subscribing to the Christian ideology you propagate here is a matter of honesty on my part. I honestly don't believe there is an "offer of redemption and reconciliation and justification" - by a supernatural being - for me to "refuse", even if you do. In moral terms, I think we are both being honest.
What would be the moral purpose of the sinner eternally refusing His offer of redemption and reconciliation and justification out of His great love for the sinner?
How is this supernatural hatred and vengeance morally coherent?
It is consistent for a Perfect righteous Savior and Judge of all being and existence.
The eternal love of Justice would necessitate the eternal hatred of injustice. The eternal love of truth would have as its other side the eternal hatred of the lie.
If this is extraordinary the life and words of Jesus Christ is the extraordinary manifestation of a Person consistent with the extraordinary claims of both the kindness and severity of God.
@sonship saidWhat would be the moral purpose of the 8,000th year of this torture by burning being inflicted? If your God figure is supposedly willing to prove his existence with demented, senseless violence of this kind, why doesn't he just prove his existence to humans while they are living? You don't seem to realize how utterly morally incoherent your ideology is.
You do not have to redeemed and you do not have to be justified. But you do have to know in eternity that He is God.
@sonship saidThis is another, slightly more verbose, "it is because it is" type argument. Your belief that something is "consistent" does not make something morally coherent. Why is the demented, hateful vengeance carried out in secret? What is the moral purpose of that?
If this is extraordinary the life and words of Jesus Christ is the extraordinary manifestation of a Person consistent with the extraordinary claims of both the kindness and severity of God.
@sonship saidHow is it injustice to not know of God?
@FMFHow is this supernatural hatred and vengeance morally coherent?
It is consistent for a Perfect righteous Savior and Judge of all being and existence.
The eternal love of Justice would necessitate the eternal hatred of injustice. The eternal love of truth would have as its other side the eternal hatred of the lie.
If this is extrao ...[text shortened]... ation of a Person consistent with the extraordinary claims of both the kindness and severity of God.
The injustice appears to be coming from your doctrine. Your God apparently says
- profess your faith and you can sin all you like and still get eternal life
- those who do not profess faith can do all the good in the world and they will be eternally tormented.
You and your God are sick and disgusting sonship.
The true God has no such doctrine in the bible.