Neither of us is omniscient. Neither of us is sharing perspectives that are omniscient. Your insinuation or claim that your perspective is somehow imbued with omniscience is a rhetorical gimmick.
That is right that neither of us know for 100% certainty.
I have a faith. I have not claimed that it is 100% proof or knowledge. It is a faith based on what has persuaded me as God communicating to humans and who Himself became one.
From 2013 or before when I was jaywill, from the beginning, I have claimed that I have a faith.
Because I do not assert that there is supernatural causality involved.
What do you have against supernatural causality if it occurred ?
Are you afraid that you will get out of control and think everything is a matter of supernatural causality ?
What caused atoms, molecules, matter, to suddenly have the property of consciousness and a sense of moral purposes ?
Its easy to ask tough questions for me too.
As you can do it ad infinitum, so can I.
@sonship saidYour stuff about never ending torture as hateful vengeance does not make any moral sense. Fortunately, whatever moral nonsense you have "faith" in does not have any impact on the reality in which I live.
@FMFNeither of us is omniscient. Neither of us is sharing perspectives that are omniscient. Your insinuation or claim that your perspective is somehow imbued with omniscience is a rhetorical gimmick.
That is right that neither of us know for 100% certainty.
I have a faith. I have not claimed that it is 100% proof or knowledge. It is a faith base ...[text shortened]... om 2013 or before when I was jaywill, from the beginning, I have claimed that I have a faith.
@philokalia saidThe obligations that Christians think they have to their God figure are a matter for Christians only.
That's right:
Our moral obligations are solely for ourselves.
However, the obligations that God would put on us are for everyone.
@philokalia saidIt's incoherent in so far as it doesn't make any sense. When asked basic questions about its supposed coherence, Christians here issue 'It is because it is' type assertions, spam bomb the conversation with walls of text, deflect, or just disappear for a while.
Isn't the difference of opinion here something to do with value judgments, though?
It is not incoherent.
Incoherent is defined as:adj.Lacking cohesion, connection, or harmony; not coherent.
You could say that it is unjust or something, and make an argument.
But you're just not using English words right in this moment.
@sonship saidNeither of us know. Consciousness is possible evidence for a creator I think, while the moral dimension we have today i believe is something that has evolved. It's amazing. It could have been created to evolve like that, like everything else. But what's this got to do with torturing people in burning flames for eternity for not believing in Jesus?
What caused atoms, molecules, matter, to suddenly have the property of consciousness and a sense of moral purposes ?
@sonship saidSo why are you asking me a facetious, gimmicky question about whether I have "omniscience" as if it somehow furthers the discussion?
That is right that neither of us know for 100% certainty.
I have a faith. I have not claimed that it is 100% proof or knowledge. It is a faith based on what has persuaded me as God communicating to humans and who Himself became one.
I don't arrange to have my wife and children tortured in flames for disobeying me.
That is very good.
But there are in fact some men who have killed and tortured their family. Some have been caught. Some got away from the law in doing so.
Some who did abominable acts to their family thought no one saw, no one knew, no one will call them to account. And they thought they would take their secret with them when they dissolve forever into the dust.
Do you believe no one saw, no one knew, no one will ever given bring them to give an accounting for what they did ?
Do you believe there could even be forgiveness for such a monstrous parent?
I believe that there is an ultimate Creator, and ultimate Savior, and an ultimate Judge. And one, I said ONE ... of the things He has told us (among many other wonderful things about forgiveness) is that to exist eternally without being reconciled to Him won't be enjoyable.
And He has told us this in terms that are impossible to misunderstand. You may finally choose existence without Him. But it won't be a blessing but a curse.
And if you actually think that the parallel is the same and you are one of God's children, a part of His family, then I think you should find something at the beginning of each day to THANK Him for.
If you conceptualize God as your parent, then what harm is there to you to thank God for at least one thing as you lay down to sleep.
Your birth, your life, your breath, your sound mind, your free will to choose or reject, your working respiratory system, your working digestive system, your healthy brain, your sustenance, your shelter, your family, your enjoyment of the things you do and love, your sense of moral purpose ...
There is nothing that you could not stop for a moment and thank God for, IF you regard yourself as His family, loved one, child ?
It seems you want to argue that you just CANNOT believe in God. But also want to compare God to a parent in whose family you admit you belong.
@sonship saidSome of them will be "saved" - so I am told - and some of them will be thrown into a furnace and tortured for eternity - according to your morally nonsensical beliefs - along with people like me who did not kill and torture their families, but, instead, for not believing in Jesus.
But there are in fact some men who have killed and tortured their family. Some have been caught. Some got away from the law in doing so.
@sonship saidAnd I will receive the same punishment as them despite not doing abominable acts to my family, right, because oh yes I did something much much much worse, right, I did the worst thing possible according to your far-fetched religion, I didn't believe in Jesus, yes?
Some who did abominable acts to their family thought no one saw, no one knew, no one will call them to account.
@sonship saidIf they die before they get caught then that's how it is. Everyone dies. Why would your God figure still be punishing me in 150,000 years from now for not believing in Jesus when I was alive in the C20th and C21st?
Do you believe no one saw, no one knew, no one will ever given bring them to give an accounting for what they did ?