Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Proof

@sonship said
Matt Slick ( of www.CARM.org ) gives a good example of ID I think.

You have a room, In the room a table, Scattered on the table are a thousand coins totally mixed, chaotically thrown across the table.

You have cameras in the room.
You have cameras on the door leading in and out of that room.

In the morning the coins are in piles - all pennies together, all nic ...[text shortened]... have no earthly idea WHO could have possibly been in the room to do it.

Does someone disagree ?

Yes.

@sonship said
Matt Slick ( of www.CARM.org ) gives a good example of ID I think.

You have a room, In the room a table, Scattered on the table are a thousand coins totally mixed, chaotically thrown across the table.

You have cameras in the room.
You have cameras on the door leading in and out of that room.

In the morning the coins are in piles - all pennies together, all nic ...[text shortened]... have no earthly idea WHO could have possibly been in the room to do it.

Does someone disagree ?

I disagree also

@galveston75 said
The word mean what it says it means.
Lol, what does a school education have to do with any of this? What education did all the others who wrote the bible have?
I didn't know there was a certain requirement. Are you sure you have the right education?
Anyway no where in the Bible does God ever say that any of us need a higher education in order to be accepted by God o ...[text shortened]... ing to human tradition, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;

School education, heck any education, has little to do with Christian belief.
The people who created your holy, holy book thought the Earth was a disc with a firmament with windows in it, to let the water in from space.
Even Peter, whose writings indicate a Greek education, was nothing more than an illiterate fisherman.

@sonship said
Matt Slick ( of www.CARM.org ) gives a good example of ID I think.

You have a room, In the room a table, Scattered on the table are a thousand coins totally mixed, chaotically thrown across the table.

You have cameras in the room.
You have cameras on the door leading in and out of that room.

In the morning the coins are in piles - all pennies together, all nic ...[text shortened]... have no earthly idea WHO could have possibly been in the room to do it.

Does someone disagree ?

There is no mechanism for the coins to pile themselves, so there would be no scientific explanation other than fraud. This is not analogous with creation.

@deepthought said
There is no mechanism for the coins to pile themselves, so there would be no scientific explanation other than fraud. This is not analogous with creation.

Almost as lame as the analogy Robbie would wheel out about finding a jumbo jet already assembled.

@DeepThought

So you believe in a God of the gaps.

Is this a cherry picked question?

In the case of the fine tuning of about 30 constants calibrated such that the universe developed as it did for life it is not what is in the gap of unknowns which makes ID the best explanation. It is what is known in the "filled in" areas before the gap.

The Intelligent Design theorist opts to take that position because of the things KNOWN rather than the things unknown. the gap area.

They know that things like this usually happen because of intelligence.

Both of you still can have many happy years exploring more and deeper hows. It is not the end of the science exploration to recognize ID.

@DeepThought

There is no mechanism for the coins to pile themselves, so there would be no scientific explanation other than fraud. This is not analogous with creation.

Nevertheless, that the denominations are correct, suggests intelligence. The rest is total mystery as of yet.

If we discover machinery on the dark side of the moon and have not the slightest CLUE as to who put it there, that is no logical reason to think intelligent agency was not involved.

In the coin example "fraud" would still be a mark of intelligence.

@caissad4 said
And Theists have none, zip, zero and nada for their extraordinary claims.

Well let's see, what would be extraordinary proof?

Splitting the Red Sea? Raising people from the dead? Creation?

@whodey said
Well let's see, what would be extraordinary proof?

Splitting the Red Sea? Raising people from the dead? Creation?

Sorry, Moses never existed.
Please provide some historical evidence for walking dead.
Please provide evidence for creation.

@galveston75 said
The word mean what it says it means.
Lol, what does a school education have to do with any of this? What education did all the others who wrote the bible have?
I didn't know there was a certain requirement. Are you sure you have the right education?
Anyway no where in the Bible does God ever say that any of us need a higher education in order to be accepted by God o ...[text shortened]... ing to human tradition, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;

At least I know what the meaning of "firstborn" is, as used in Colossians 1:15.

It's even given to you in Colossians 1:17, but you still screw it up, all in the name of justifying your dogma.

@sonship said
@DeepThought

So you believe in a God of the gaps.

Is this a cherry picked question?

In the case of the fine tuning of about 30 constants calibrated such that the universe developed as it did for life it is not what is in the gap of unknowns which makes ID the best explanation. It is what is known in the "filled in" areas before the gap.

The I ...[text shortened]... years exploring more and deeper hows. It is not the end of the science exploration to recognize ID.

There is no evidence for Intelligent Design other than gaps in the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection. All the evidence you're presenting is of the form of fine tuning problems in physics. This is what is meant by a God of the Gaps.

@caissad4 said
It is you who has made the extraordinary claim of the existence of a god.
I do not claim to know whether a god exists or doesn't exist.

I don't know whether god or gods [or "God] exist either [and ~ depending on one's definition of "know" ~ like Wolfgang59, I don't think anyone does] but, given the human condition - in terms of anthropology and psychology - I don't think claims about the "existence of a god" are "extraordinary".

Quite the contrary; they are widespread and everpresent; they are, for the most part, mundane and ordinary. Claims about everlasting life, ultimately, don't mean much and [in and of themselves] they don't really have any effect on those who don't believe in it. We all die - that we know - if people want to think they go on to some other form of life thereafter, so what? One could argue that it's an "ordinary" aspiration.

What I find more interesting - because their propagators just offer assertions instead of evidence - are "the extraordinary claims" about God communicating with humans and issuing specific instructions and warnings/threats and - attendant thereto - the whole "extraordinary claim" about nonsensical supposed after-death punishment for not subscribing to a given religion.

Some "extraordinary proof" of that kind of "extraordinary claim" would be interesting.

@DeepThought

There is no evidence for Intelligent Design other than gaps in the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection. All the evidence you're presenting is of the form of fine tuning problems in physics. This is what is meant by a God of the Gaps.

Some scientists are accused of this throwing up the hands and saying "Oh well. We don't understand this phenomenon in the universe. So we fill in our gap of ignorance with God." But the major evidence for intelligent design lies not in what they don't understand but what they DO understand.

First the very fact that we can do science at all, is strong evidence that we are reading OUT of the natural world schemes put INTO the nature world by a Divine Mind. Isaac Newton perhaps one of the greatest of all scientists that ever lived, didn't use his discovery of the laws of gravitation as an Aha moment - "Now I don't need God." Rather the more he understood, the more he worshiped God.

Isaac Newton was not saying at all - "I can't explain it. Therefore God did it." He said he COULD explain it. And the formulas could be so eloquently combined and expressed he believed that was evidence of God's mind, that injected the mechanisms into creation.

Kepler, likewise said the way the planets work could be described in wonderful mathematical formulas. He talked about "Thinking God's thoughts after Him."

In this case as with other scientists (if not all) their faith in God was increased by what they understood rather than by what they didn't understand.