Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Proof

@sonship said


I m talking about the Person of Jesus.
Either He was a madman, a liar, or the Son of God.

Show proof for any of these possibilities please.
Since he didn't know that Moses was a myth and never existed, I vote for liar or madman.

@fmf said
He was a Jewish rabbi who was executed for sedition by the Romans. Decades later, some people created a cult of personality centred him that marginalized the Jews. To me, your bogus choice ... "either he was a madman, a liar, or the Son of God" is just another rhetorical gimmick. I suggest you use it when preaching to the choir and you can pretend that it was some clincher you dazzled a non-believer with.

Hummm? Could you show those written records of those "some people" who made up this person that we call Jesus?

@FMF

He was a Jewish rabbi who was executed for sedition by the Romans. Decades later, some people created a cult of personality centred him that marginalized the Jews. To me, your bogus choice ... "either he was a madman, a liar, or the Son of God" is just another rhetorical gimmick. I suggest you use it when preaching to the choir and you can pretend that it was some clincher you dazzled a non-believer with.

That's a crackpot conspiracy theory borne out of your paranoia.

@sonship said
@FMF

He was a Jewish rabbi who was executed for sedition by the Romans. Decades later, some people created a cult of personality centred him that marginalized the Jews. To me, your bogus choice ... "either he was a madman, a liar, or the Son of God" is just another rhetorical gimmick. I suggest you use it when preaching to the choir and you can pretend that it wa ...[text shortened]... d a non-believer with.

That's a crackpot conspiracy theory borne out of your paranoia.

Oh brother, remember that The Flying Spaghetti Monster still loves you. 😍

@galveston75 said
Hummm? Could you show those written records of those "some people" who made up this person that we call Jesus?

They wrote the NT decades and decades after Jesus is thought to have lived. Paul didn't even meet Jesus and yet wrote a huge chunk of the NT. The Book of Revelation, as a supposed part of the history of Jesus, is just taking the mickey. The NT is the "written record" of what they produced.

@sonship said
@FMF

He was a Jewish rabbi who was executed for sedition by the Romans. Decades later, some people created a cult of personality centred him that marginalized the Jews. To me, your bogus choice ... "either he was a madman, a liar, or the Son of God" is just another rhetorical gimmick. I suggest you use it when preaching to the choir and you can pretend that it wa ...[text shortened]... d a non-believer with.

That's a crackpot conspiracy theory borne out of your paranoia.

I disagree.

He was a Jewish rabbi TRUE.

who was executed TRUE

for sedition by the Romans. TRUE.

Decades later, some people [wrote...]. TRUE

Some people created a cult of personality centred on Jesus. TRUE.

That marginalized the Jews. TRUE.

No paranoia involved.

@FMF

I disagree.

He was a Jewish rabbi TRUE.

I agree as I read the New Testament.
From where did you learn this ?

who was executed TRUE

You are jumping over quite a bit. But yes Jesus was executed.
From where did you learn that He was executed, from the New Testament ?

for sedition by the Romans. TRUE.

Here is where you conspiracy theory has its start.
The Roman governor Pilate tried everything to NOT execute Jesus, because he perceived that it was out of jealousy that the other (let us say "rabbi types" ) wanted to have Him killed.

Matthew 27:18 - Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said to them, Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas or Jesus who is called Christ?

For he knew that it was because of envy that they had delivered Him up."

Pilate CAVED IN to populous pressure to fulfill the chief priests, lawyers, scribes, rabbis who opposed Jesus with the mob they whipped up against Jesus. Pilate, in order to make sure he was in good standing with the Roman emperor, caring for his own skin, caved in and has Jesus crucified.

Pilate knew that He had done nothing worthy of death. Your paranoia probably sets in about here. And following crackpot Richard Carrier perhaps, you are sure you are being lied to by the writers of the Gospels.

Decades later, some people [wrote...]. TRUE

Paul's letters are slightly over a decade after the exception of the Christian church. And when Paul wrote First Corinthians there remained ALIVE somewhere around five hundred people who together could confirm of deny that Jesus was seen alive after being executed.

But here is where your paranoia sets in. You think Paul lied, or someone lied and signed "Paul" or some other conspiracy.

For I delivered to you, first of all, that which also I received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures;

And that He was buried, and that He has been raised on the third day according to the Scriptures;

And that He appeared to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve;

Then He appeared to over five hundred brothers at one time, of whom the majority remain until now, but some have fallen asleep. (1 Cor. 15:3-6)

You came to this post blind and paranoid. And you will leave it more blind and more paranoid.

But when Paul wrote that letter he was out on a limb challenging the audience that nearly five hundred eye witnesses were still alive to confirm or deny what Paul was telling the Corinthians.

Some people created a cult of personality centred on Jesus. TRUE.

Half true.

The sorting process of what was spurious about Jesus and what was true and trustworthy did start early. But the fact that spurious opinions are known to have been growing up along with the spread of the Gospel does not prove that gospels are not true.

The earliest debates we know about are between the apostles and the Docetistic Gnostics. The debate was that the Gnostics thought that Jesus was too good and too wonderful to be material.

All material was evil to the Docetists. So Jesus could not for them be MATERIAL. In John's Gospel John re-emphasizes that Jesus was not a phantasm. John says he saw blood and water coming out of His body on the cross.

But coming to Jesus, when they saw that He had already died, they did not break His legs; But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately there came out blood and water.

And he who has seen this has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he ways what is true, that you also may believe." (John 19:33-35)

If a cult of personality emerged at the same time as the spread of the Gospels, the earliest one we know about it the Gnostic teaching that Jesus could not have been a physical material person because He was just too good.

And here John assures the readers of his Gospel that He was indeed a normal physical man as evidenced at His execution.

So I say your conspiracy is a half truth.

That marginalized the Jews. TRUE.

Marginalized Jews is not enough to concoct a conspiracy that the Gospels were imaginary legends.

The marginalized Jews is not verses the account of the Gospels. Both are true.

Now you answer without a wild paranoid conspiracy theory THIS.

If the "cult personality" Christians wanted to firmly establish that Jesus was the faithful Son of God. WHY would they include that on the cross He cried out -

My God, my God, Why have you forsaken Me ?

Wouldn't that be counter productive to imply that Jesus thought Himself to have been forsaken by the God Whom He lived to serve ?

The inclusion of this potentially scandalous detail historians would more likely see as an indication of truthfulness and candor.

Your "personality cult" leader, cried out at His death that He had been forsaken by God ! WHY would they include that detail rather than CONCEAL it forever ?

@fmf said
They wrote the NT decades and decades after Jesus is thought to have lived. Paul didn't even meet Jesus and yet wrote a huge chunk of the NT. The Book of Revelation, as a supposed part of the history of Jesus, is just taking the mickey. The NT is the "written record" of what they produced.

You didn't answer my question. Here it is again... "Could you show those written records of those "some people" who made up this person that we call Jesus?"

@sonship said
@FMF

I disagree.

He was a Jewish rabbi TRUE.

I agree as I read the New Testament.
From where did you learn this ?

who was executed TRUE

You are jumping over quite a bit. But yes Jesus was executed.
From where did you learn that He was executed, from the New Testament ?

for sedition by the Romans. ...[text shortened]... e; and he knows that he ways what is true, that you also may believe." (John 19:33-35) [/b]

There is absolutely nothing "paranoid" about my perspective on the Jesus story. You are misusing the word.

@sonship said
@FMF

I disagree.

He was a Jewish rabbi TRUE.

I agree as I read the New Testament.
From where did you learn this ?

You make a fair point, albeit - I think - inadvertently. Yes, he might not have existed as portrayed at all. It's true, I may be wrong to make as much of the NT as I do. "Jesus" may be a kind of composite figure conjured up decades and decades after he was supposed to have lived. Fair point [although I realize it's not the point you thought you were making].

@galveston75 said
You didn't answer my question. Here it is again... "Could you show those written records of those "some people" who made up this person that we call Jesus?"

The NT is the written record of the creation of Jesus mythology. That is the written record of the "some people who made up this person that we call Jesus".

@galveston75 said
You didn't answer my question. Here it is again... "Could you show those written records of those "some people" who made up this person that we call Jesus?"

What is the written record of the veracity of the Book of Revelation or even of who wrote it?

@sonship said
If a cult of personality emerged at the same time as the spread of the Gospels, the earliest one we know about it the Gnostic teaching that Jesus could not have been a physical material person because He was just too good.

And here John assures the readers of his Gospel that He was indeed a normal physical man as evidenced at His execution.

So I say your conspiracy ...[text shortened]... t He had been forsaken by God ! WHY would they include that detail rather than CONCEAL it forever ?

You keep using the word "paranoid" incorrectly. Not buying into the mythology that you buy into does not make me "paranoid". Nor does it make the world's Muslims or the Hindus or the Jews or the Sikhs or any other non-Christians or non-believers "paranoid".

@sonship said
Your "personality cult" leader, cried out at His death that He had been forsaken by God ! WHY would they include that detail rather than CONCEAL it forever ?

Because they were creating a cult or personality/religion centred round him and the whole far-fetched notion that this man was somehow the "Son of God" and that his execution for sedition - as happened to countless thousands of other people living in the lands occupied by the Romans for centuries - was somehow an event of great supernatural significance..