Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Proof

@caissad4 said
Two thousand years and absolutely no proof of the existence of your god.
Unless you count the toast.
Is he on an extended vacation ?

Nope, no vacation. If you really want some answers on that, please take the time to read this. If you really want to know that is.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/why-does-god-allow-suffering/

@galveston75 said
I didn't expect it to.....

If you want to talk to a non-believer about things like personhood, morality, metaphysical things, or nature etc., fine. But to just recite religious doctrine AT a non-believer suggests that your religion truncates your ability to communicate with people who are not members of your group.

@fmf said
If you want to talk to a non-believer about things like personhood, morality, metaphysical things, or nature etc., fine. But to just recite religious doctrine AT a non-believer suggests that your religion truncates your ability to communicate with people who are not members of your group.

Well this is the "spiritual forum" so that's probably what all of us are going to talk about, right?
If this is not what you want to hear or discuss then you are in the wrong place it seems.
By the way I used one of your comments in a thread I just started. I actually agreed with you on a comment you made earlier....

@galveston75 said
If this is not what you want to hear or discuss then you are in the wrong place it seems.

I am quite happy to discuss the topic that cassaid4 has raised. So one can hardly say I am in the "wrong place". And it's always interesting to see how the religious beliefs of people like you distort your intellect and your integrity and your interpersonal skills as you parade your own particular brand of spirituality-shrivelling religionism. So one can hardly say I am in the "wrong place" on that front, either.

@galveston75 said
Nope, no vacation. If you really want some answers on that, please take the time to read this. If you really want to know that is.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/why-does-god-allow-suffering/

Is that a fictional account of an asserted but never proven being ?

@sonship said
@FMF

@sonship said
@FMF

Say you lose your faith and become an atheist before you die. What would be the moral "logic" [or moral purpose] of you still being tortured in burning flames - in secret - 600 years from now, for example? Or 3,000 years from now?

I have already been judged eternally by God on Calvary, on the cross of Jesus.

My son and I may have a tiff between us that we have trouble communicating with one another. He is still my son.

That "losing of faith" is just a temporary interruption in fellowship in the scheme of eternity. The life relationship of being regenerated cannot be undone.

I may suffer the loss of reward. I will not suffer the loss of the GIFT of eternal life.

So I become an atheist after being a Christian - and die a non-believer - and I am a willing follower of "Satan's" rebellion and will be tortured for eternity for it, but if you become an atheist after being a Christian - and die a non-believer - you will be OK because your "salvation" "cannot be undone"? How nice for you. It's laughable 'I'm alright Jackism'.

@caissad4 said
Two thousand years and absolutely no proof of the existence of your god.
Unless you count the toast.
Is he on an extended vacation ?

Extended vacation?

Perhaps. I would consider it more like well enough time for mankind to make their choice.

A choice which would become tainted were there definitive proof.

Remember... "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

@suzianne said
Perhaps. I would consider it more like well enough time for mankind to make their choice.

A choice which would become tainted were there definitive proof.

Remember... "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

Is the "choice" to believe that a Christian makes "tainted" if she claims to have "definitive proof" to support the things she believes?

The reason I ask is because you said that a "choice" to believe would "become tainted if there were definitive proof."

@suzianne said
Remember... "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

If, because you find the offer not credible, you decide not to send money for technical international banking reasons to the widow of the Nigerian Finance Minister in order ~ according to the e-mail ~ to unlock $ 10,000,000 of frozen assets so that she can supposedly pay you your $ 2,000,000 fee, does that mean you "have made a choice" to reject the $ 2,000,000?

@fmf said
The obligations that Christians think they have to their God figure are a matter for Christians only.

If God is real, whether you believe in him or not, you will be held accountable on Judgment day for your actions and circumstance.

And, because it is always more persuasive to show universal truths by saying them in a way that is unfavorable for the speaker...

If the Hindu gods are the correct ones and mine is not, I will be held accountable within their own system.

And, if there is no God, one could say that I theoretically have wasted my life or some such in my commitments and all the time I spent praying. Of course, one can argue that there were tangible benefits of community and toward my mental health and disposition via religion, but this is not necessarily the topic of the post or the thread.

@fmf said
It's incoherent in so far as it doesn't make any sense. When asked basic questions about its supposed coherence, Christians here issue 'It is because it is' type assertions, spam bomb the conversation with walls of text, deflect, or just disappear for a while.

But then nothing is really coherent because everything is reducible to a tautology.

@philokalia said
If God is real, whether you believe in him or not, you will be held accountable on Judgment day for your actions and circumstance.

And, because it is always more persuasive to show universal truths by saying them in a way that is unfavorable for the speaker...

If the Hindu gods are the correct ones and mine is not, I will be held accountable within their own system ...[text shortened]... ealth and disposition via religion, but this is not necessarily the topic of the post or the thread.

The key to it is that the supernatural stuff you and others believe and your speculations/aspirations about everlasting life etc. have no impact on my life or on the lives of people who see the human condition the way I do. Aside, that is, from those of us who find it interesting enough to spend some small portion of our lives discussing religious beliefs with religionists.

@philokalia said
But then nothing is really coherent because everything is reducible to a tautology.

The view that the torturer god ideology is morally incoherent is rather substantiated by the fact that people like you and sonship and KellyJay run away from simple common sense questions about it.

@fmf said
The key to it is that the supernatural stuff you and others believe and your speculations/aspirations about everlasting life etc. have no impact on my life or on the lives of people who see the human condition the way I do. Aside, that is, from those of us who find it interesting enough to spend some small portion of our lives discussing religious beliefs with religionists.

It is definitely true that we all determine what does or doesn't affect us to some degree as we possess free will.

However, no mortal has control over metaphysics (or lack thereof) of the universe.

So, I am right on this one in the big picture, FMF.

@fmf said
The view that the torturer god ideology is morally incoherent is rather substantiated by the fact that people like you and sonship and KellyJay run away from simple common sense questions about it.

I remember that when I dug in my feet to deal with the question, you actually were suggesting I to debate KellyJay or Sonship about it.

But if you'd like to put me to the question again, I am open to it.

There's noting to run from.