For RJHinds-yes Pre:rapture

Originally posted by sonhouse
The sad part is everyone believing this utter BS as if it were real. That is the problem with these religions, acting as if this crap is real. Being obsessed with religion is the reason we have religious wars. All you have to do to see that is look at ISAS or Boko Haram and the like to see those dudes are pathologically obsessed with their religion to the p ...[text shortened]... were some kind of animal in line to be butchered.

That is what religious obsession leads to.

It is ISIS or just IS. You already know that I believe it is the religion of ISLAM that brings in the Antichrist and the tribulation spoken of in the Holy Bible. Do you also believe ISIS is BS?

When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

(Revelation 6:9 NASB)

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

(Revelation 20:4 NASB)

Originally posted by RJHinds
It is ISIS or just IS. You already know that I believe it is the religion of ISLAM that brings in the Antichrist and the tribulation spoken of in the Holy Bible. Do you also believe ISIS is BS?

When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, [b]I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the te ...[text shortened]... they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

(Revelation 20:4 NASB)

You would LOVE for all this to be THE indication of last days, wouldn't you? The reality is these ISIS and Boko are just thugs with a religious veneer.

It happens in Christianity also, you just want to hide yourself from that fact,
and it happens in all religions. That is why I say religion is the scourge of the Earth, humanity's worse failure. They had to make up a thousand religions and each one screaming WE are the TRUE religion, including yours.

They can't all be true and by far the most likely case is NONE of them are true, just man made bullshyte to control other people and build a political base.

Of course in your case, all that is just fine, churches are such FINE establishments. Just keep the kids away from the priests...

Originally posted by sonship

I am terribly miserable when I am around false teachers.

This thread is on [b] Yes Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

See if you can make your posts about that.

===============================================
To the rest of the readers, especially my Christian brothers and sisters, I write this:

Does this passage mean that eve ...[text shortened]...

I think BOTH passages speak of a blessing because a conditional requirement has been met.[/b]

As Philadelphia, Alasehir was a highly important center in the Early Christian and Byzantine periods, and remained a titular see of the Catholic Church.

Philadelphia was a prosperous Byzantine city, called the "little Athens" in the 6th century AD because of its festivals and temples. Presumably this indicates that the city wasn't entirely converted to Christianity. Ammia, the Christian prophetess, was from Philadelphia, however. In about the year 600 the domed Basilica of St. John was built, remains of which are the main archaeological attraction in the modern city. The Byzantine walls that once surrounded the city have all but crumbled away. A few remnants are still visible at the northeast edge of town, near the bus stand. The city was taken by the Seljuk Turks in 1074 and 1093-94. In 1098, during the First Crusade, it was recovered by Byzantine Emperor Alexios I.

In the 14th century, Philadelphia was made the metropolis of Lydia by the Greek Orthodox patriarch of Constantinople, a status it still holds. It was granted this honor because the city did not capitulate to the Ottomans.

Philadelphia was an independent, neutral city under the influence of the Latin Knights of Rhodes, when taken in 1390 by Sultan Bayezid I and an auxiliary Christian force under the Byzantine emperor Manuel II after a prolonged resistance, by which time all the other cities of Asia Minor had surrendered to the Ottomans. Manuel had been forced by Bayezid to participate in subjugating Philadelphia to Turkish rule, a bitter irony given its long resistance. Twelve years later it was captured by Timur, who built a wall with the corpses of his prisoners.

The Greek army occupied the city during the Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922). According to a number of sources, the retreating Greek army carried out a scorched-earth policy while retreating from Anatolia during the final phase of the war. James Loder Park, the U.S. Vice-Consul in Constantinople at the time, who toured much of the devastated area immediately after the Greek evacuation, described the situation in the surrounding cities and towns of İzmir he has seen, as follows:


"In Alasehir, hand pumps were used to soak the walls of the buildings with Kerosene. As we examined the ruins of the city, we discovered a number of skulls and bones, charred and black, with remnants of hair and flesh clinging to them. Upon our insistence a number of graves having a fresh-made appearance were actually opened for us as we were fully satisfied that these bodies were not more than four weeks old."

According to Park, 70% of the buildings of Alasehir were destroyed by fire, while Kinross wrote "Alasehir was no more than a dark scorched cavity, defacing the hillside. Village after village had been reduced to an ash-heap." It is estimated some 3,000 lives had been lost in the burning of Alasehir.

The suburb of Athens named Nea Filadelfia ("New Philadelphia" ) is so named because Greek refugees from Alasehir (in Greek known as "Philadelphia" ) settled there following the war and the Population exchange between Greece and Turkey of 1923.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ala%C5%9Fehir

Originally posted by RJHinds

As Philadelphia, Alasehir was a highly important center in the Early Christian and Byzantine periods, and remained a titular see of the Catholic Church.

Philadelphia was a prosperous Byzantine city, called the "little Athens" in the 6th century AD because of its festivals and temples. Presumably this indicates that the city wasn't entirely convert ...[text shortened]... change between Greece and Turkey of 1923.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ala%C5%9Fehir

That is a nice history. I am sure all of the seven cities mentioned in the Revelation 2 and 3 all had their respective interesting histories.

But Revelation is also prophecy. And it is prophecy told to John by means of signs.

"The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show to His slaves the things that must quickly take place; and He made it known by signs, sending it by His angel to His servant John."(Rev. 1:1)

That is prophecies made known by means of signs.
The seven churches in Asia, though actual historical places, are also used by God as signs of prophecy.

Your comment on the historical backround of that particular city does not remove the symbolic function of the signs.

There are seven churches in the letters in Revelation 2 AND 3. And they are grouped in this manner 3 + 4 to equal 7.

This means that the first 3 should be considered together and the last 4 should be considered together. That is there is some relationship that they share, the three - Ephesus, Smryna, Pergamos, and the four - Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea.

The reason we consider them as 3 + 4 is in the passage about overcoming and the exhortation to hear. Each letter ends with both an call to hear what the Spirit says to the churches and a promise to those who overcome.

But the order is different in the first three - Ephesus, Smyrna and Pergamos, for the order in the last four - Thyatire, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.

In the first three letters it is first a call to hear what the Spirit says to the churches followed by a promise of reward to those who overcome. In the last four letters this order is reverse. You have first a promise to those who overcome then that is followed by an exhortation to hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

This clues us that we should think of the churches as three in one relationship and four in one relationship.

The significance of the last four together - Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea, is that they will be four kinds of Christian church experiences on the earth when Jesus comes back. These four types of situations will exist on the earth simultaneously at the time of the second coming.

This is a brief word. But one of these church experiences is symbolized by the church in Philadelphia. And to her the Lord has put an open door that no man can shut, into the next age. That is the millennial kingdom age.

"And to the messenger of the church in Philadelphia write: These things says the Holy One, the true One, the One who has the key of David, the One who opens and no one will shut, and shuts and no one opens.

I know your works; behold , I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power and have kept My word and have not denied My name." (Rev. 3:7,8)

The key of David is related to the Messianic age of the millennium. And the open door to this church means that they are right at the door to enter from the church age into the age of the Messianic kingdom, with Christ sitted on the throne of David in Jerusalem.

This is a brief comment. But each of the churches has some symbolic and prophetic significance. That last four churches relate to four kinds of churching experience which will be on the earth at one time when the Lord Jesus returns.

Thorough discussion of this can be read in a book by Watchman Nee entitled "The Orthodoxy of the Church"

This link may get you there

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=2C23822ADD

Originally posted by sonship
There are seven churches in the letters in Revelation 2 AND 3. And they are grouped in this manner 3 + 4 to equal 7.

This means that the first 3 should be considered together and the last 4 should be considered together. That is there is some relationship that they share, the three - Ephesus, Smryna, Pergamos, and the four - Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelph ...[text shortened]... s link may get you there

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=2C23822ADD

One of the problems I have with your rapture idea are these verses in Revelation. They seem like a different "administration" is now in effect.
These verses contradict the earlier verses in the epistles concerning grace and the end of the law.
This tells me the age of grace has ended, due to a rapture or some other change, and a new administration had begun.
Rev 3:2-3
for I have not found your works perfect before God.
NKJV

Rev 3:5
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life;
NKJV

Rev 3:15-17
"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
NKJV

Rev 2:20-23
Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
NKJV

Rev 2:5
Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place — unless you repent.
NKJV

Originally posted by checkbaiter

One of the problems I have with your rapture idea are these verses in Revelation. They seem like a different "administration" is now in effect.
These verses contradict the earlier verses in the epistles concerning grace and the end of the law.

We should not count grace as meaning no responsibility on the believer's part. We are no longer under the demand of the law which we must fulfilled to be justified.

But if we are not conformed to living through this indwelling grace it is like we have received the grace of God in vain. Our need to be eternally justified is met. But God's need to have sons conformed to Christ is not.

Paul is speaking to Christians in Second Corinthains 6:1 -

"And working together with Him , we also entreat you not to receive the grace of God in vain." (2 Cor. 6:1)

This has nothing to do with them being unsaved or losing eternal redemption. It has to do with them being defeated in Christian walk rather than overcoming.

Paul set himself forth as an example of one who did not receive the grace of God and then vainly nullifying it.

" ... and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nothing." (Gal. 2:20c-21)

Each of the rewards mentioned to the seven churches is an incentive for Christians not to nullify the grace of God and not to receive that grace in vain.

In other words, just to be forgiven by God is not the only goal of His giving grace. Grace is a power over man yet a power within man too, that man may live Christ.

So there is no conflict. Each of the promises to those who overcome in Revelation 2 and 3 are related to rewards of the millennial kingdom and not to eternal salvation in the new heavens and new earth.

This tells me the age of grace has ended, due to a rapture or some other change, and a new administration had begun.
Rev 3:2-3
for I have not found your works perfect before God.
NKJV

To the church in Sardis Jesus did not find there works "completed". This means that what God began to recover in the reformation came to a premature stop. God began to recover through this symbolic church, for example Justification by Faith through Martin Luther. But there was more that needed to be restored.

The Reformation stopped short before a full recovery. Therefore Jesus says that He has not found their works completed or "perfect". The Recovery Version renders verse 2 -

"Become watchful and establish the things which remain, which were about to die, for I have found none of your works completed before My God." (Rev. 3:2)

I would encourage you to read this portion of ministry on the significance of the letter to the church in Sardis.

Here is a sample from chapter 6 of The Orthodoxy of the Church followed with a link where you can read more.

THE CHURCH IN SARDIS
Scripture Reading: Rev. 3:1-6

We have seen that during the time of the apostles there was the behavior of the Nicolaitans. After the behavior of the Nicolaitans, we have seen how Pergamos sinned greatly by bringing the world into the church. After the Nicolaitans came Jezebel, and at the same time idols were brought into the church. But there is a good point here: In Thyatira we see the judgment of Jezebel, the casting of her into a bed that she may not move; we also see that her followers will one day be killed. These prophecies have not yet been fulfilled; they will be fulfilled at the time of Babylon's fall in Revelation 17. The history of Thyatira began from the time Jezebel improperly brought idols into the church and will continue until she receives judgment. Now we must see one thing: When the church, in her continuous fall from the Nicolaitans, comes to the stage of Jezebel, God can no longer tolerate it. Then Sardis emerges. "Sardis'' means "the remains.'' The church in Sardis is God's reaction to Thyatira. The history of revival in the churches throughout the entire world indicates divine reactions. Whenever the Lord begins a revival work, He is reacting. God's reaction is man's recovery. I would like you to keep this principle firmly in mind. Sardis appears because the Lord has seen the condition of Thyatira.

In Revelation several churches are in pairs. Sardis is connected with Ephesus. Philadelphia is connected with Smyrna, and Laodicea is connected with Pergamos. Only Thyatira stands alone. In Sardis the Lord says that His name is "He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: I know your works, that you have a name that you are living, and yet you are dead'' (Rev. 3:1). The epistle to Ephesus says that His right hand holds seven stars, while the epistle to Sardis says that He has the seven stars. Ephesus is the slackening after the apostles, that is, the changing from something good to bad; Sardis is the recovery from Thyatira, that is, the changing from something bad to good. Having works but no love is Ephesus; living in name but dead in reality is Sardis. So these two are a pair. The Lord manifests Himself as He who has the seven Spirits. The seven Spirits of God are sent of God to the world to work, and this refers to the work of life. The seven stars in Ephesus refer to the messengers; here they refer to the illumination. The work of recovery is half in the Spirit and half in the light.

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=1EADC8440B

Originally posted by sonship
That is a nice history. I am sure all of the seven cities mentioned in the Revelation 2 and 3 all had their respective interesting histories.

But Revelation is also [b]prophecy. And it is prophecy told to John by means of signs.

"The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show to His slaves the things that must quickly take ...[text shortened]... historical backround of that particular city does not remove the symbolic function of the signs.

The pastor on the video does not mention a reference to a rapture before the tribulation. The rapture has always been taught as the catching up of the believers that remain alive at the coming of the Lord.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 KJV)

According to Jesus this occurs after the tribulation of those days.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

(Matthew 24:29-31 NKJV)

Apparently the Lord does not return until after the tribulation, so that means that the rapture would also occur after the tribulation.

Why would God not bring his people through the tribulation? God always allows his people to go through the tribulations. Daniel and the den of lions? Or this bit
Revelation 2:9-11 NASB

'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'

There are more examples...... God allows his people to go through tribulation..... How about the apostle Paul being beaten and stoned and left for dead?

Manny

The pre-trib stuff is from the 1800's and really has no weight in scripture



Manny

Tribulations God uses to try and test and purify his people. When all you have is God



Manny

Originally posted by menace71
Why would God not bring his people through the tribulation? God always allows his people to go through the tribulations. Daniel and the den of lions? Or this bit
Revelation 2:9-11 NASB

'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear w ...[text shortened]... ribulation..... How about the apostle Paul being beaten and stoned and left for dead?

Manny

Sounds like the "Yea! Bring It On!" Christian macho attitude.

I explained very clearly that unless some overcoming saints are rapture there will not be a great triublation because their rapture CAUSES it to begin.

That may mostly be on the other thread on No - Pre-tribulation Rapture.

Originally posted by sonship
Sounds like the "Yea! Bring It On!" Christian macho attitude.

I explained very clearly that unless some overcoming saints are rapture there will not be a great triublation because their rapture CAUSES it to begin.

That may mostly be on the other thread on [b]No - Pre-tribulation Rapture.[/b]

Perhaps you are confusing the wrath of God (DAY OF THE LORD) after the return of Christ with the great tribulation.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

(2 Thessalonians 2:3)

The man of sin (Antichrist) will be revealed FIRST and the tribulation will occur before the rapture and the day of the Lord comes.

To be raptured pre-tribulation is an act of obedience.

"But take heed to yourselves lest perhaps your hearts be weighed down with debauchery and drunkeness and the anxieties of life, and that day come upon you suddenly as a snare.

For it will come in upon all those dwelling on the face of all the earth.

But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man." (Luke 21:34-36)

To walk in the Spirit watchfully and pray that we escape the snare coming upon the whole world is therefore not cowardly escapism. It is rather a response of obedience to the Lord's command.

It is good to realize that we can trust God through tribulation. It is foolish to desire to pass through the great tribulation when the response of obedience would be to heed the Lord's instruction in Luke 21:34-36.