For RJHinds-yes Pre:rapture

Originally posted by sonship
To be raptured pre-tribulation is an act of obedience.

[quote]
[b]"But take heed to yourselves lest perhaps your hearts be weighed down with debauchery and drunkeness and the anxieties of life, and that day come upon you suddenly as a snare.

For it will come in upon all those dwelling on the face of all the earth.

But be watchful at every ...[text shortened]... when the response of obedience would be to heed the Lord's instruction in [b]Luke 21:34-36.[/b]

http://christianovercomers.com/blog/2011/07/06/the-rapture-deception/

Originally posted by menace71

Why would God not bring his people through the tribulation? God always allows his people to go through the tribulations. Daniel and the den of lions? Or this bit
Revelation 2:9-11 NASB

I agree that God is faithful to bring His children through tribulation. But the Lord's command was to watch and pray that we may prevail to escape this particular world wide trial.

Since it is a exhortation to be obeyed (Luke 21:34-36), it is totally logical that some of us will take heed and some of us will neglect to do so.

Here is a portion of prophecy showing that some took heed to prevail and stand before the Son of Man being raptured before the great tribulation.

"And I saw and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harp singers playing on their harps ... who have been purchased from the earth ... These were purchased from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb." (See Ravelation 14:1-5)

In obedience to Christ's command they have prevailed to escape what is described as the great tribulation in the rest of the chapter. And they "stand before the Son of Man" (Luke 21:36) having prevailed through being watchful at every time, following the Lamb where ever He was going.

These Firstfruits depict pre-tribulation rapture. The rest, the majority are taken at the end of the great tribulation in the very same chapter. That is the vision of the Harvest being reaped in verses 14 - 16.

And obviously, by then the man of sin has been revealed as Second Thessalonians 2:1-12 had predicted.

Be careful. The second coming of Christ will carry some surprises just as His first coming did.

Why would God not bring his people through the tribulation? God always allows his people to go through the tribulations. Daniel and the den of lions? Or this bit
Revelation 2:9-11 NASB

I very much agree that we boast in tribulation for it works endurance, etc. Romans 5:3.

But you should see that these lessons of endurance should be learned in our daily Christian walk. In rather mundane daily lives this endurance through many many little triublations is available for us to learn.

Revelation 3:10 simply says that by the time of the end of this age, Christ will reward some vigilant ones who seized the opportunity to endure through grace. As a reward for learning these lessons they will be made exempt from passing through the hour of the great tribulation.

"BECAUSE YOU have kept the word of My endurance, I ALSO will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth."

It is quite logical and typical that a minority of the total Christian body on earth would have seized the time to learn lessons without a great tribulation. So as a reward, they, having graduated in this sense, are kept out of the hour of the world wide trial.

We do not have here that they are kept through the hour but kept altogether OUT of the hour. So selective pre-triblation rapture is the most biblical interpretation of this matter.

Originally posted by sonship

Why would God not bring his people through the tribulation? God always allows his people to go through the tribulations. Daniel and the den of lions? Or this bit
Revelation 2:9-11 NASB

I very much agree that we boast in tribulation for it works endurance, etc. [b]Romans 5:3.

But you should see that these lessons of e ...[text shortened]... he hour. So selective pre-triblation rapture is the most biblical interpretation of this matter.[/b]

We already know that "keep you out of the hour of trial" can not refer to a rapture before the tribulation, because Jesus says His coming and the rapture is after the tribulation of those days.

This false doctrine of an easy escape began in 1830 by a man named John Darby, known as the father of the pre-tribulation rapture.

http://christianovercomers.com/blog/2011/07/06/the-rapture-deception/

Originally posted by RJHinds

We already know that "keep you out of the hour of trial" can not refer to a rapture before the tribulation, because Jesus says His coming and the rapture is after the tribulation of those days.

This false doctrine of an easy escape began in 1830 by a man named John Darby, known as the father of the pre-tribulation rapture.

http://christianovercomers.com/blog/2011/07/06/the-rapture-deception/

Darby was partially right.
His chief opponent in the debate Benjamin Newton was also partially right.
Neither side of the controversy could completely ignore the other's most valid points.

A little of what I have attempted to explain here is what portions of Darby are accurate and what portions of Newton's concept were accurate as well.

This seems to go over your head.
And calling Darby the "father of" the pre-triublation rapture, sounds a bit like saying Martin Luther was the "father of" Justification by Faith.

But once again, Darby was only partially right as was Newton.
Some careful teachers latter discerned where both men must be each partially correct.

IE. G.H. Pember, Robert Govette, D.M. Panton, Watchman Nee, Witness Lee

Problem is with the pre-trib doctrine is that we only see Christ physical return one time and this is at last Trump as Paul describes it. We don't see Christ coming secretly and taking away his super faithful then coming again later or a 2nd time. It's one single event. The souls seen at or under the alter in the book of Revelation are said to have come out of the great tribulation but probably for being faithful and then being killed for their faith during the great tribulation. If you notice they want justice and their told to wait a bit longer.

Manny
PS it ain't about being macho who would want to go through tribulation trust me I would pass if God made that possible

Originally posted by sonship

Why would God not bring his people through the tribulation? God always allows his people to go through the tribulations. Daniel and the den of lions? Or this bit
Revelation 2:9-11 NASB

I very much agree that we boast in tribulation for it works endurance, etc. [b]Romans 5:3.

But you should see that these lessons of e ...[text shortened]... he hour. So selective pre-triblation rapture is the most biblical interpretation of this matter.[/b]

Let me ask you something, jaywill.

How many believers (firstfruits, as you say) will be taken to avoid the Great Tribulation? Will their number actually be so small so as to avoid notice by the large media outlets of our day? I mean, there are 7, almost 8 billion people on this planet now. And certainly those chosen for this "first rapture" must be small indeed, if they are basically "the cream of the crop" as you imply.

My question is, will anyone, even those looking for such a "rapture", even know that it has happened?

Originally posted by menace71
Problem is with the pre-trib doctrine is that we only see Christ physical return one time and this is at last Trump as Paul describes it. We don't see Christ coming secretly and taking away his super faithful then coming again later or a 2nd time. It's one single event. The souls seen at or under the alter in the book of Revelation are said to have come ou ...[text shortened]... g macho who would want to go through tribulation trust me I would pass if God made that possible

I have to agree with you, Manny. This is how I have always seen it as well.

I'm willing to listen to what jaywill is saying though. He's making a decent case.

Originally posted by Suzianne

Let me ask you something, jaywill.

How many believers (firstfruits, as you say) will be taken to avoid the Great Tribulation?

I have no idea whatsoever.

I'll give you my opinion about this:

1.) It will be a vast minority of the total number of Christians.

2.) The mention of 144.000 Firstfruits in Revelation 14 suggests, perhaps, that the number is not so large as to not be appreciated by us. IE. It is a number which is somewhat manageable in terms of our way of counting.

This is in contrast to the total number of people raptured when all is done, which number is larger than anyone but God can count. IE. "A GREAT MULTITUDE WHICH NO ONE COULD NUMBER " (Rev. 7:9)

"After these things I saw, and behold, there was a great multitude which no one could number, out of every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, ..."

Briefly, this vision is an inserted vision like an interlude between the sixth seal and the seventh seal. Its function, I believe, is to inform us generally that rapture in the last analysis (irrespective of time) will be of a gigantic number of saints from earth to stand in heaven "before the throne and the Lamb."

In contrast 144,000 early ripe ones as Firstfruits is not so astronomical and uncountable a number from a human standpoint.

3.) The number 144,000 early ripe "Firstfruits" may also indicate that there is a threshold amount. When God gets that amount that He desires for His satisfaction, they go up.

The multiplication of 12,000 times 12,000, having the number of perfection in eternity 12 is symbolic of God's rest and satisfaction of purpose being achieved in this group.

Will their number actually be so small so as to avoid notice by the large media outlets of our day?

Since this has not happened yet, we can only imagine. But we can imagine with reference to similar things in the Bible.

Enoch seems to have been NOTICED that he had disappeared -

"And Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him." (Gen. 5:24)

Don't you get the impression that "he was not" implies that he was missed and noticed as being missing? I do. His disappearance was even a testimony and warning.

Elisha also noticed that Elijah was caught away by God (2 Kings 2:1-18).

Worldly opinions and media will probably fly in all directions. That is unpredictable. I think the saints left on the earth will know what happened. It will be ironic when they see that some teachers who warned of such a thing were called "cult" leaders by supposed "experts" of Christian theology.

Some who had the teaching and the knowledge will most likely be left. For just Bible knowledge without life will not do any good in this matter.
I do not want to be one left on the earth to say "I told you. I told you." That would be embarrassing to say the least.

The coming antichrist will probably mock the ones raptured or have some explanation for it that serves his wicked purposes. He may gloat that they have been raptured away as being a nuisance to mankind anyway.

And millions will be duped to nod and blindly plunge over the precipice with the Antichrist. It says that because men did not love the truth, therefore God will send them strong delusion to enthusiastically chase after in self deception.

"The lawless one ... the coming of whom is according to Satan's operation in all power and signs and wonders of a lie and in all deceit of unrighteousness among those who are perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth that they might be saved.

And because of this God sends to them an operation of error that they might believe the lie, So that all who have not beliueved the truth but have taken pleasure in unrighteousness might be judged." (See 2 Thess. 2:8-12)

I mean, there are 7, almost 8 billion people on this planet now. And certainly those chosen for this "first rapture" must be small indeed, if they are basically "the cream of the crop" as you imply.

I don't know about statistics of this.

I do not think "cream of the crop" is as good an expression as "Firstfruits" . We are all destined to be cream of the crop. We may not all be destined to arrive at this at the same time.

You should think in terms of a crop growing in a farmer's field. Some portion ripens early and some latter and even there are some late gleanings. You should really not think of an elite rising ABOVE the standard set by God. Rather you should regard to overcome is to be AT the standard set by God.

Remember that the Lord Jesus told the servants to say "Lord we only did what was our duty to have done."

[b] Luke 17:10 - "So then you, when you do all the thingswhich are ordered you, say, We are unprofitable slaves; we havedone what we ought to have done."

Early rapture does not mean certain Christians were a "cream of the crop" elite above the standard. They only did what was ordered them to do. Their inward feeling is not of superiority over others. They feel that by God's mercy they were just NORMAL servants.

This is also the tone of Watchman Nee's classic book "The Normal Christian Life" . That book is on being a victorious and overcoming believer. It is normal that by His grace we should be "more than conquerors" through Him who loved us.

My question is, will anyone, even those looking for such a "rapture", even know that it has happened?

My opinion is that enough will know exactly what has happened.
This will be a sign that the great tribulation is right in front of them.

My fellowship would be to practice letting the Spirit of Jesus rapture you on a daily basis from all kinds of troubles, temptations, evil moods, lusts, unforgiveness, sins, etc. etc. When these things come to us, as they do on a daily basis, we can turn to the Lord Jesus and touch Him. We can even whisper "Lord Jesus I love you" and grace flows into our being.

We can call on the Lord. We can pray to the Lord. We can sing unto Him or rehearse some precious truth of the Scriptures. This is watching. This is being vigilant. And this can lead to the Lord Jesus catching us away from our old self into Himself.

If we have a practice of turning to the Lord in this way, as a good habit built up, it is probably that when a pre-tribulation secret rapture comes, we will know just how to cooperate.

If this is not helpful then ASK the Lord how you may watch and pray.

One further thing.

Probably SOME who do not agree with pre-tribulation rapture will be raptured anyway because of the quality of their Christian walk.
And probably SOME who did doctrinally agree with pre-tribulation rapture will miss it because of deficiencies in their Christian walk.

It is dependent upon watching in life with vigilance. It is not dependent upon doctrinal agreement alone or disagreement.

Originally posted by sonship

Let me ask you something, jaywill.

How many believers (firstfruits, as you say) will be taken to avoid the Great Tribulation?

I have no idea whatsoever.

I'll give you my opinion about this:

1.) It will be a vast minority of the total number of Christians.

2.) The mention of 144.000 Firstfruits in [b]Revelation 14 s ...[text shortened]... hing in life with vigilance. It is not dependent upon doctrinal agreement alone or disagreement.[/b]

I see the tribulation beginning in Revelation 6 with the opening of the seals. After the tribulation of the five seals, the opening of the sixth seal signals the end of the tribulation and the coming of the Lord and the wrath of the Lamb.

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

(Revelation 6:15-17 KJV)

After the great tibulation of those days and before the wrath of the Lamb is allowed to begin 144,000 from the tribes of Israel are given the seal of the living God in their foreheads (Revelation 7:1-4). These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb (Revelation 14:3-4). John also says he saw a great multitude in heaven that are said to have come out of the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9).

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb...

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

(Revelation 7:1-4, 9-10, 13-17 KJV)

Then the wrath of the Lamb against the unbelievers on the earth begins in Revelation 8 after the opening of the 7th seal with the blowing of the trumpets by the angels.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I see the tribulation beginning in Revelation 6 with the opening of the seals. After the tribulation of the five seals, the opening of the sixth seal signals the end of the tribulation and the coming of the Lord and the wrath of the Lamb.

You said that you would go along with what makes the most sense to you from the Scriptures. And I see that this makes the most sense to you.

I think we have discussed a lot of these details before. Rather than repeat those exchanges perhaps I'll wait to see what serious questions anyone has about what I think makes the most sense as far as God has helped others of us to understand.

Originally posted by Suzianne

I will address this comment of Manny.

Problem is with the pre-trib doctrine is that we only see Christ physical return one time and this is at last Trump as Paul describes it.

The saints raptured before the great tribulation do see Christ in heaven before the last trumpet. Three pieces of evidence I would offer briefly.

1.) Luke 21:36 - "But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man."

For a long time I did not regard this " ... and stand before the Son of Man" to indicate rapture. But I changed my mind after some years. I decided that this probably means standing before the Son of Man in heaven having been raptured before the world wide trial (Rev. 3:10).

Look at Enoch's experience. He knew that judgment was coming. Because he knew this by revelation he did two things.

He called his son an unusual name Methusaleh which means in essence "when he dies it will come". The "it" meaning the judgment of God in the flood.

Secondly, because of his understanding of what was coming he walked with God for about 200 years. And walking with God resulted in his being taken before the flood came.

Some see things getting worse and worse and read the sign of the times. They become " watchful at every time, beseeching " the Lord that they would prevail to escape the steadily worsening things. It is typical that not all of God's people will have this reaction. Many are now befuddled and made drunken by the power of the world.

But some will escape and be raptured to the third heavens and stand before the Son of Man. They will SEE the Son of Man physically then.

2.) The Firstfruits see the Son of Man standing on some heavenly Mount Zion. That there IS a heavenly Mount Zion of some sort is proved by Hebrews 12:22.

"But you have come forward to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels, to the universal gathering ... etc"

All this meaning that our hearts are belonging to a heavenly realm though we are living physically on earth. But now in Revelation 14 some are physically transported to where their spirit, mind, and heart have been already present.

"And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads ... And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders ... These were purchased from among men." (See Rev. 14:1-5)

Since the sound of their singing comes out of heaven (v.2) they must be in heaven and also must see the Son of Man there. The four living creatures, the angelic elders, and the Lamb are the matters seen by John in heaven in chapters four and five.

So these see the Lord Jesus in heaven before His cataclysmic public descent at the end of the great tribulation which is spoken to in the same chapter as the Harvest afterwards.

"And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe. And He who sat on the cloud thrust His sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped." (vs.15,16).

By this time the Lord is on the cloud near the surface of the earth and the Harvest is not reaped up to the third heavens but to the air where the Lord Jesus is close to the earth.

So the Firstfruits saw the Son of Man in heaven before this time. Then these overcomers accompany Christ from heaven to come down near the surface of the earth. And the Harvest will see Christ not in heaven but in the clouds in the air to which they are raptured -

"Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS to meet the Lord IN THE AIR; and thus will be always with the Lord." (1 Thess. 4:17,18)

This is not a rapture to heaven for verse 16 says explicitly that the Lord descends from heaven - "Because the Lord Himself, with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN, ... etc." (v.16)

The time of the rapture of this Harvest is different. And the place to which they are raptured is also different. In the typology in the Old Testament the firstfruits were taken to the house and the harvest was taken to the barn.

" These early overcomers will be the first ripe ones in God's field. Hence, they will be reaped before the harvest as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. The harvest will be reaped later, in [Rev. 14: 14-16] just as in the good land the firstfruits were reaped and brought into the temple of God before the harvest (Lev. 23:10-11; Exo. 23:19). "

Footnote 14(4)-2 of Rev. 14:4, Recovery Version

3.) The collective Manchild, the "THEY" who are released from the bright woman and raptured to the throne of God before the "time and times and half a time" (Rev. 12:14) being the "thousand two hundred and sixty days", sees the Lord Jesus in the third heavens.

So reading carefully we should see that these three evidences prove that the Lord Jesus will be seen by some early raptured saints who are a minority of those living at the time and those asleep in death at that time. And this seeing of Jesus is before the last trumpet.

I submit that it is not reliable to think that NO ONE among the saints of God will see the Lord Jesus physically until time of the last trumpet.

Notice also that Paul's word under inspiration was "we who are living, who are left remaining". This could imply that some were already living but were taken.

It should have been sufficient for Paul simply to say "we who are living" . Because under inspiration he added the words - "who are left remaining" it could mean that some were already raptured, and those left remaining and living are the Harvest to be taken at the last trumpet.

We don't see Christ coming secretly and taking away his super faithful then coming again later or a 2nd time. It's one single event. The souls seen at or under the alter in the book of Revelation are said to have come ou ...[text shortened]... g macho who would want to go through tribulation trust me I would pass if God made that possible

To shorten this post - Once again "super faithful" is a false concept. To overcome is not to rise ABOVE the standard. It is to arrive AT the standard in normality. It is not to be "super" but to be a normal on time enjoyer of the overcoming grace that Christ has allotted to us all who believe.

I'm no expert on the subject of pre-tribulation rapture (or no pre-trib rapture) but doesn't this happen about the same time the Spirit will be withdrawn from the earth?

If the Spirit is withdrawn (removed) what does this mean for the people who had already received the Holy Spirit Jesus promised to them? Jesus said he will never leave or abandon anyone who receives him, so if the Spirit is withdrawn from the earth wouldn't this mean those who had received the Spirit would be withdrawn as well?

With the restrainer of evil gone there will be nothing to stop the full force of tribulation. Those who received the Spirit would also be removed* and those who were simply playing church will be left behind.



*otherwise it would mean Spirit filled believers would be like catch and release fish who go back into the water, and the promise of never being abandoned ends up being null and void.

Originally posted by lemon lime

I'm no expert on the subject of pre-tribulation rapture (or no pre-trib rapture) but doesn't this happen about the same time the Spirit will be withdrawn from the earth?

Some think the Holy Spirit will be withdrawn from the earth during the great tribulation. I don't think this is true.

For one, the two "sons of oil" in Revelation 11 testify in the power of the Spirit of God.

For another, in the midst of the harshest time of the great tribulation some are martyred in their phenomenal endurance. And I don't think they could endure without the power of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit testifies that they have well endured.

"Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice out of heaven, saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them." (Rev. 14:12,13)

This passage tends to make me feel that the martyred Christians and preserved Jews are enabled to undergo the most intense persecution under Antichrist by the supplying Spirit of God.

I am not sure who is the one taken out of the way is in who presently restrains.

"And now you know that which restrains, so that he [Antichrist] might be revealed in his own time. For it is the mystery of lawlessness that is now operating, but only until the one now restraining goes out of the way." ( 2 Thess. 2:6,7)

This restraining power is a mystery to me. Perhaps it is an angelic restraining. I don't know. It reminds me something of the book of Daniel in the spiritual warfare of the angels.

I do not think this means the Holy Spirit is completely absent from the earth during the great tribulation.

If the Spirit is withdrawn (removed) what does this mean for the people who had already received the Holy Spirit Jesus promised to them?

As I think you realize, the Holy Spirit is given to the regenerated to be with them FOREVER (John 14:16).

This Spirit is also a seal and a pledge to remain with the ones so stamped supernaturally until the time of the full redemption of their bodies.

" ... believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance unto the redemption of the acquired possession ..." (Eph. 1:13b,14a)

"He who has also sealed us and given the Spirits in our hearts as a pledge." ( 2 Cor. 1:22)

"Now He who has wrought us for this very thing is God, who has given to us the Spirit as a pledge." ( 2 Cor. 5:5)

Jesus said he will never leave or abandon anyone who receives him, so if the Spirit is withdrawn from the earth wouldn't this mean those who had received the Spirit would be withdrawn as well?

Jesus can discipline us but not abandon us. Correct?
The seal of the Holy Spirit is until the day of redemption of the body.
So I do not think this Holy Spirit could in any wise be removed once He is implanted into our innermost being.

With the restrainer of evil gone there will be nothing to stop the full force of tribulation. Those who received the Spirit would also be removed* and those who were simply playing church will be left behind.

When Jesus taught that two would be in the field and one would be taken and one would be left, we have to consider what He meant.

Perhaps there are two main possibilities:

1.) Two people will be in a field or at a mill or in a bed. One person is taken and one person is left.

2.) Two Christians will be in a field or at a mill or in a bed. One Christian is taken and one Christian is left.

My understanding of this warning is that it is too the disciples of Jesus.
I don't think Jesus is warning unbelievers about a rapture.
I think Jesus is warning Christians.

Therefore, after some contemplation of the whole scenario, I have come to the conclusion that Jesus meant two Christians; two of His servants - one is ready and one is caught off guard.

When the disciple of Jesus ASKED if He was speaking to them about this He affirmed that it was to them and to all future disciples, I think.

Concerning the parable of the master coming and finding his servants behaving either well or badly in Luke 12:35-48, Peter asks who is this parable being spoken for.

"And Peter said, Lord, are You saying this parable to us, or also to all? And the Lord said, Who then is the faithful and prudent steward, whom the master will set over his service to give them their portion of food at the proper time?

Blessed is that slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. Truly I tell you that he will set him over all his possessions. BUT ... if that slave says in his heart, My master is delaying his coming, and begins to beat the male servants and the female servants and to eat and to drink and become drunk, the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers." (Luke 12:41-46)

"Watch therefore, for you do not know when the Master of the house comes, whether in the evening or at midnight or at cockcrowing or in the morning; Lest He come suddenly and find you sleeping.

And what I say to you, I say to all: WATCH! " (Mark 13:35-37)

The whole tone is very much with His own disciples in view. It does not leave me with any kind of feeling that no matter what my spiritual condition I will automatically be raptured.

If that were the case there would be no need for the Lord Jesus to speak of His return as WARNING to be vigilant.

And He can discipline without taking away the Holy Spirit or removing eternal redemption.

*otherwise it would mean Spirit filled believers would be like catch and release fish who go back into the water, and the promise of never being abandoned ends up being null and void.

So, missing an early rapture is not losing the Holy Spirit or being lost to eternal perdition.

Originally posted by lemon lime
I'm no expert on the subject of pre-tribulation rapture (or no pre-trib rapture) but doesn't this happen about the same time the Spirit will be withdrawn from the earth?

If the Spirit is withdrawn (removed) what does this mean for the people who had already received the Holy Spirit Jesus promised to them? Jesus said he will never leave or abandon anyon ...[text shortened]... ho go back into the water, and the promise of never being abandoned ends up being null and void.

“For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.”

(2 Thessalonians 2:7)

The Holy Spirit restrains the “lawless one” (Antichrist) so he is not revealed before God wills it. It does not mean that the Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth during the tribulation. Remember there is a multitude that no one can number that is saved during the tribulation (Revelation 7:9–14). It is the Holy Spirit that provides the saving grace for them.