We already know that "keep you out of the hour of trial" can not refer to a rapture before the tribulation, because Jesus says His coming and the rapture is after the tribulation of those days.
Jesus says by way of command that it we are wise we will watch and pray that we would prevail to escape the great tribulation.
"But be watchful at every time, beseecing that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man." (Luke 21:36)
1.) This command is just as serious as any OTHER command of the Lord Jesus. Our opinion is not asked for. Our obedience is commanded.
Watch, beseech that you Christians might prevail to escape the coming triublations and "stand before the Son of Man."
2.) Any command of Jesus Christ carries with it the realism that SOME will heed the command and some will fail to do so.
3.) We should not be surprised, that God knowing the future, would include in His word what occurs to those who obey and what occurs to those who failed to obey.
4.) Therefore that there would be passages about pre-great tribulation and post-great tribulation is perfectly consistent with God's foreknowledge.
5.) It is typical that God would tell what happens in relation to:
A.) His perfect will - that Christians prevail to escape the GT and stand before the Son of Man in heaven.
B.) His permissive will - that Christians who failed to heed the warning are dealt with in another manner fit to God's faithfulness.
6.) Therefore we should not be surprised that we see prophetic evidence of pre- GT rapture in Revelation 3:10, 12:5-12, 14:1-5 and a post -GT rapture in 1 Thess. 4:13-18; Rev. 14:14-16; Matt.24:27-30.
The second coming of Christ has two aspects; one is the secret aspect, related to His watchful believers; the other is the open aspect, related to the unbelieving Jews and Gentiles. The lightening [Matt. 24:27] here signifies the open aspect ...
"For just as the lightening comes from the east and shines to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be." (Matt. 24:27)
The lightening here signifies the open aspect, which will take place after the great tribulation (vv. 29-30).
"And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And at that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven; and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His chosen together from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other end." (Matt. 24:29-31)
lightening here signifies the open aspect .... WHEREAS the thief's coming in v.43 signifies the secret aspect, which will occur before the great tribulation. Lightening may be considered as being concealed in a cloud, waiting for an opportunity to flash forth. In a similar way, Christ will be clothed with a cloud (Rev. 10:1) in the air or a time and them will suddenly appear, like a flash of lightening striking the earth. Hence, the Lord's coming like a flash of lightening will be a sign of the end of the Lord's parousia .... This implies also that the Lord is like electricity.
One other point about Matt. 24:31 remains to be discussed in another post.
Originally posted by sonshipThe thief refers to Satan, who comes to steal kill and destroy, not to Jesus.WHEREAS the thief's coming in v.43 signifies the secret aspect, which will occur before the great tribulation.
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
(John 10:10 KJV)
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In John 10:10 on an entirely different subject, Jesus speaks of the so-called saviors not being Himself, the Son of God, as the thief. This certainly would include Satan.
"The thief does not come except to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life and may have it abundantly. " (John 10:10)
But in Matthew 24:43 on the teaching of Christ's sudden and unannounced coming the thief coming to steal is Jesus Christ. He comes as a thief to take what is precious in terms of God's kingdom.
"But know this, that if the householder had known in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming." (Matt. 24:43,44)
In this teaching "the thief" stands for "the Son of Man" Jesus Christ.
Why should the householder be ready? He should be prepared for an unexpected, unannounced, surprise visitation of "the Son of Man" .
Why should the Christian be prepared? He must be ready for his Lord to come. [same with female Christians]
"Watch therefore, for you do not known on what day your Lord comes. (v.42) But know this, that if the householder had known in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. " (v.43)
The thief is "your Lord" and "the Son of Man" .
He has told us elsewhere that either He comes as a thief or some day of His judging comes as a thief.
1.) Revelation 3:3 - "Remember therefore how you have received and heard, and keep it and repent. If therefore you will not watch, I will come as a THIEF, and you shall by no means know at what hour I will come upon you."
2.) Revelation 16:15 - "Behold, I come as a THIEF. Blessed is he who watches and keeps his garments that he may not walk naked and they see his shame."
3.) First Thessalonians 5:2 - "For you yourselves know perfectly well that like a THIEF in the night, so the day of the Lord comes."
4.) Second Peter 3:10 - "But the day of the Lord will come as a THIEF, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the elements, burning with intense heat, will be dissolved. and the earth and the works in it will be burned up."
Since I already anticipate the pushback, I preemptively clarify - Not all of these verses refer to the pre-great tribulation rapture. But they all regard Christ's coming in on the affairs of His people to be like a thief. He comes for what is precious to God.
In Matthew 24:43 the householder refers to the believer, and house to the conduct and work that a believer has built up in his Christian life. Christ comes as a thief to take what WE have built up in our Christian walk for Him, rather rudely and suddenly, unexpectedly so as to catch you on your spiritual toes.
A thief comes at an unknown time to steal precious things. The Lord, the Son of Man, will come secretly, as a thief, to those who love Him and will take them away as His treasure.
Since we Christians do not know the moment of His sudden coming we should watch. Where there is ignorance we must apply vigilance.
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Originally posted by sonshipIt may disappoint you that I will maintain some details if not an exhaustive amount of detail.It does appear we are on the same page if not the exact same paragraph or line. I'm a bit more trusting of the overview than in details, and I'm not entirely convinced of any details I might come up with. And neither should any one else, because I'm most speculating based on what I have read in the Bible.
It may disappoint you that I wil ...[text shortened]... pired Scriptures inviting the believer to apply wisdom with scripture to calculate some details.
The Holy Spirit invites us to use wisdom on occasion to ascertain details of prophecy.
I should have mentioned the reason I usually try to avoid speculating over details found in Revelations. But whenever I do speculate I want to make it clear that these are my ideas, and not necessarily truths or details in line with doctrine. The reason for this is because of the warning that appears at the end of Revelations, about adding to or taking away from the words of that particular prophesy.
Some people believe the warning applies to all of the scriptures because it appears near the end of the Bible itself, but that particular warning only (specifically) refers to the revelation given to John.
Also, when I said prophesy given thousands of years ago might only make sense to people today, what I had in mind were statements like the whole world (or the entire world) witnessing particular events as they unfold. No one today would think this is an odd statement, but thousands of years ago this would make no sense at all... how could anyone witness something happening on the other side of the world if it wasn't possible to witness it from a few miles away?
Originally posted by sonshipI don't believe it means Jesus will come and steal the believers. I believe it just means He will come suddenly or quickly like a lightning strike.
In [b]John 10:10 on an entirely different subject, Jesus speaks of the so-called saviors not being Himself, the Son of God, as the thief. This certainly would include Satan.
"The thief does not come except to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life and may have it abundantly. " (John 10:10)
But in ...[text shortened]... e moment of His sudden coming we should watch. Where there is ignorance we must apply vigilance.[/b]
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Originally posted by lemon lime
I should have mentioned the reason I usually try to avoid speculating over details found in Revelations. But whenever I do speculate I want to make it clear that these are my ideas, and not necessarily truths or details in line with doctrine. The reason for this is because of the warning that appears at the end of Revelations, about adding to or taking away from the words of that one particular prophesy.
Some people believe the warning applies to all of the scriptures because it appears near the end of the Bible itself, but that particular warning only (specifically) refers to the revelation given to John.
Okay. I can understand admitting like the Apostle Paul, that we know "in part" and prophesy "in part." This is humility and I respect that.
I noticed that there was a blessing upon those who read [or read aloud] the words of the prophecy (Rev. 1:3). I very much encourage people to READ the book of Revelation.
But that does apply to the Bible as a whole which is afterall the revelation of Jesus Christ.
So Revelation, is the consummate of the entire 66 books which are all together a revelation of Jesus Christ.
It may be that John was only talking about his scroll. But I think the application to the entire 66 books as the revelation of Jesus Christ is valid as well.
I dare not add to or substract from Obadiah or Proverbs either personally.
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Originally posted by RJHinds
I don't believe it means Jesus will come and steal the believers. I believe it just means He will come suddenly or quickly like a lightning strike.
Incidently, John 10:10 says that in constrast TO the thief Jesus comes to give us life and that more abundantly. A rapture in any regard would be to give us spiritual life more abundantly.
And since we are in the world but not of the world, for Him to suddenly remove us physically, would be a kind of "stealing" as far as the world is concerned. He makes the point "These people belong to Me and not you- fallen world."
Think of the entire chapter of Hebrews 11 where the writer speaks of the heroes of faith. The world was not worthy of them -
"(Of whom the world was not worthy), ... " (Heb. 11:38) - sojourners on the earth, looking for a better country (v.13)
Their being removed rudely, suddenly, is also a rebuke to the world who has mistreated them. Elijah was taken from Israel as if stolen from the school of prophets and even from his protege Elisha (See 2 Kings 2:1-18 ).
When I turned to the Lord Jesus eventually some of my old worldly friends seemed to consider that Jesus had stolen me spiritually if not physically.
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Originally posted by sonshipIf you want to apply this specific warning to all 66 books then I don't see a problem with that, but the warning in Rev 22:18,19 is very clear and doesn't appear to be referring to any other prophesy.
[quote] I should have mentioned the reason I usually try to avoid speculating over details found in Revelations. But whenever I do speculate I want to make it clear that these are my ideas, and not necessarily truths or details in line with doctrine. The reason for this is because of the warning that appears at the end of Revelations, about adding to or taki ...[text shortened]... valid as well.
I dare not add to or substract from Obadiah or Proverbs either personally.
The warning specifically points to "the prophesy of this book" (verse 18) and again in verse 19 when it refers to "the book of this prophesy"... those two verses say this book and this prophesy. Notice how the words 'book' and 'prophesy' are interchangeable? It doesn't change the meaning, but it does appear to highlight the importance of the warning.
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Originally posted by sonshipIt may be true that Christ may come to suddenly remove us physically, but it appears to occur only one time and that is after the tribulation of those days.I don't believe it means Jesus will come and steal the believers. I believe it just means He will come suddenly or quickly like a lightning strike.
Incidently, [b]John 10:10 says that in constrast TO the thief Jesus comes to give us life and that more abundantly. A rapture in any regard would be to give us spiritual life more abun ...[text shortened]... y old worldly friends seemed to consider that Jesus had stolen me spiritually if not physically.[/b]
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Matthew 24:29-31 New King James Version NKJV)
And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
(Matthew 24:22 New King James Version NKJV)
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Originally posted by lemon limeThankyou lemon.
I did take this into account.
" ... the words of the prophecy of this scroll ... " (v.18) " ... the words of the scroll of this prophecy ..." (v.19)
And I also consider God's general warning not to add to His word to Moses in Deut. 4:2; or to His words generally in Proverbs 30:6.
Back to pre- great tribulation rapture, do you think in the concept of growing plants - firstfruits and harvest themselves are sufficient to prove the rapture in at least two installments ?
This would be the sequence of scenes in Revelation 14 -
There are three reaping - one on the front end of the events of the great tribulation and two on the back end.
First reaping - verses 1- 5 - Firstfruits
The Eternal Gospel to fear the Creator preached during the GT - verses 6-7
The fall of Religious Babylon as an early event in the GT - verse 8
The Warning againt the worship of Antichrist during the GT - verses 9-12
The Blessing promised the Martyrs in the GT - verse 13
The Harvest of believers at the end of the GT - verses 14 -16
The Gathering of the Grapes of Wrath at Armegeddon and the end of the GT - verses 17 - 20.
The chapter as a whole concisely outlines the major happenings of the great tribulation. Religious Babylon has to be destroyed first before Antchrist can exalt himself above everything that is worshiped or called God.
" ... the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or an object of worship, so that he sits in the temple of God, setting himself forth, saying that he is God." (2 Thess. 2:3,4)
But before this the vision of the 144,000 Firstfruits are seen already raptured and standing before Christ in heaven. The Harvest is taken after these matters.
I think selective pre-tribulation rapture is established strongly by Revelation 14.
But since the original text has no chapter divisions, I would like to be challenged as to how I can show some reason for understanding a boundary from the previous chapter 13 and the following chapter 15.
That's a challenge I would like to be examined Berean style to see if these things are so. I am concerned though that perhaps not that many readers here care that much. Myself, I think the question should be asked as to:
How do I know chapter 14 should be taken as a corner study of the whole last days ? If I had never heard of selective rapture proved in chapter 14, that would be something I would want to know.
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Originally posted by sonshipThis occurs in Revelation 14, but back in Revelation 11 the seventh and final trumpet is sounded by the angel and then it says ...
Thankyou lemon.
I did take this into account.
[b]" ... the words of the prophecy of this scroll ... " (v.18) " ... the words of the scroll of this prophecy ..." (v.19)
And I also consider God's general warning not to add to His word to Moses in Deut. 4:2; or to His words generally in Proverbs 30:6.
Back to pre- great trib ...[text shortened]... r heard of selective rapture proved in chapter 14, that would be something I would want to know.[/b]
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
(Revelation 11:15-18 NKJV)
Ihe pastor says that tribulation comes first before the rapture then the wrath of the Son of God. So perhaps you are adding this wrath as part of the tribulation and the wrath of Satan. It appears to me that Revelation 6 begins the tribulation.
Originally posted by RJHindsAll this pointless debate over nothing. You are both skidding your wheels talking about useless crap when you ignore the world around you.
This occurs in Revelation 14, but back in Revelation 11 the seventh and final trumpet is sounded by the angel and then it says ...
[quote] Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” And the twenty-fo ...[text shortened]... of God. So perhaps you are adding this wrath as part of the tribulation and the wrath of Satan.
That is one my biggest problem with the religious set. Obsession with religious bullshyte while neglecting to actually live on this planet with other humans as if your non interventionist god is going to A, give a rats ass about what happens to humans and B CLEARLY is not going to come down to fix our problems, as was made extremely clear by the millions, hundreds of millions of deaths in century 20 by despots, and I don't give a crap if the leader was a frothing at the mouth atheist, the people died in the millions, tens of millions and not a squeek out of your beloved deity. So no help from that quarter, so why this continued obsession with all the BS you think is going to happen since it has been predicted literally thousands of times before, the end days are coming, tribulation is just around the corner, 2000 years of these predictions have come and gone in failure and yet here we are, 21st century and people by the millions are still obsessing over this absolute CRAP while ignoring the real problems right here and now on Earth.
Originally posted by sonhouseWe will let you do the obsessing over the real problems on the earth right now. We are debating the order of our future deliverance by our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.
All this pointless debate over nothing. You are both skidding your wheels talking about useless crap when you ignore the world around you.
That is one my biggest problem with the religious set. Obsession with religious bullshyte while neglecting to actually live on this planet with other humans as if your non interventionist god is going to A, give a rat ...[text shortened]... obsessing over this absolute CRAP while ignoring the real problems right here and now on Earth.