For RJHinds-yes Pre:rapture

Originally posted by RJHinds
It may be true that Christ may come to suddenly remove us physically, but it appears to occur only one time and that is after the tribulation of those days.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ...[text shortened]... elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

(Matthew 24:22 New King James Version NKJV)

If you recall, I wrote that Matthew 24:1 - 31 should be considered Christ speaking to His disciples mainly as Israelites. For these original disciples were typical messianic waiting Jews.

I wrote also the starting from verse 32 He begins to speak to His disciples as constituents of the Christian church.

I do believe above I also wrote that the public and open appearance of Christ in dramatic visual display is a sign to Israel. Concerning the gathering of the Christians it is somewhat remedial. That is because had the church been watching as He commanded they would have been kept from the hour of the great tribulation.

The verses from 1 to 31 contain this END of tribulation appearance of Christ as a sign to Israel -

Verse 30 - "And at that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

I draw your attention to this verse appearing in the section of verses 1 through 31 concerning the disciples as constituents of the nation Israel.

Now, in the section on the other side of the dividing line, starting from verse 32 you have the utterances about a secret and sudden rapture. These exhortations are to the disciples mainly as constituents of the new covenant church.

So in this section warning of watching to not be caught by surprise:

IE. - "But concerning that day and hour, no one knows, not even the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but the Father only." (v.36)

[Probably when we were arguing weeks ago about Isaiah 9:6 and the Son being called the Father, you may have thought I didn't believe Matt. 24:36. Of course I do. I reserve the right to believe all that the Scriptures say about Jesus Christ. And here though He is called Eternal Father, He says only the Father knew something.]

Anyway, verse 36 is about a secret.
We also have this warning after verse 32 -

"At that time two men will be in a field; one is taken and one is left.
Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes." (vs.40-42)

That is why we say a secret rapture because the time of it is secret.

Now there are worst things to not believe in than a pre-great tribulation rapture. But notice the real point here. Jesus did not tell His disciples that two would be worshipping or praying per se. He said they would be going about their mundane daily duties - working in the field or grinding at the mill.

It is their inward being that makes all the difference. It is a fine and particular subjective readiness that He is warning about. In Luke He adds that two will be in one bed and one is taken and one is left (Luke 17:34-36).

To me the implication is that even while the Christian is sleeping, his or her heart should be right before God. That takes some living during the waking hours right before God so that one sleeps pretty much in the same frame of mind.

Now the FIRST section before verse 31 is about His return towards Israel. And the SECOND section from verse 32 is about His return towards the Christian church. They are related yet they are also distinct.

Now in verse 30 in the section towards the disciples as constituents of the nation of Israel we read this - " then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will gather His chosen together from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other end."

This gathering is concerning the gathering of the Israelites as prophesied in - Deut. 30:3-5; Isaiah 43:5-7; 49:9-13, 22-26; 51:11; 56:8; 60:4; 62:10-12; 27:13; Ezek. 34:13; 37:21; 28:25.

The tribes of the land are the tribes of Isrealites and the land is the Holy Land. Christ will come down to that spot on the planet. And He will be witnessed by the tribes of the Holy Land to descend -

"Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the land will mourn over Him, Yes, amen." (Rev. 1:7)

But after verse 31, from verse 32, His coming is spoken as like the stealthy sudden intrusion of a thief. The believers should live as if at any second He could take them away.

Originally posted by sonship
If you recall, I wrote that [b]Matthew 24:1 - 31 should be considered Christ speaking to His disciples mainly as Israelites. For these original disciples were typical messianic waiting Jews.

I wrote also the starting from verse 32 He begins to speak to His disciples as constituents of the Christian church.

I do believe above I also wrote ...[text shortened]... den intrusion of a thief. The believers should live as if at any second He could take them away.[/b]

Why do you ignore that matthew 24:21-22, 27, 29-31 speaks of the great tribulation and that it will be cut short by the sudden coming of the Son of Man as lightning flashing from the east to the west and immediately after the tribulation of those days the gathering of the elect by the angels takes place?

Verse 36 and on is still talking about this same coming of the Son of Man as being sudden. I see nothing about a secret coming or a secret rapture there. Even if it is, it is still after the tribulation of those days.

Revelation 14 is also after the tribulation of those days and seems to speak of the same coming of the Son of Man and the gathering of the elect.

Originally posted by RJHinds

Why do you ignore that matthew 24:21-22, 27, 29-31 speaks of the great tribulation and that it will be cut short by the sudden coming of the Son of Man as lightning flashing from the east to the west and immediately after the tribulation of those days the gathering of the elect by the angels takes place?

Verse 36 and on is still talking about this same coming of the Son of Man as being sudden. I see nothing about a secret coming or a secret rapture there. Even if it is, it is still after the tribulation of those days.

I am not ignoring verses 21,22, 27, 29-31 at all.

The speaking of Christ concerning the last days is from Matt. 24:1 all the way through chapter 25:46. That entire section is devoted to the last days, the Lord's parousia, His physical descent and the consummation of the age.


"Tell us, When will these things be? and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the consummation of the age ?" (Matt. 24:3b)

This is the bases for the Lord's discourse from Matt.24:4 when He begins to answer all the way to Matt. 25:46 about the sheep and the goats being judged by Him just before the millennium.

I don't think anything I wrote negates verse 21.
I can't think of anything I wrote that contradicts verse 22.

I can't think of anything I wrote which renders untrue [edited] verse 27 - "For just as the lightening comes forth from the east and shines to the west so will the coming of the Son of Man be."

There can be a pre-great tribulation stealing of disciples watching vigilantly AND verse 27 be TRUE at the end of the great tribulation.

There can be a sudden unexpected stealing of watching and ready believers before the great tribulation AND great cosmic signs in heaven signaling that He is about to appear at the end of the great tribulation.

There can be the escape of worthy believers of the things which are to come to pass that they may stand before the Son of Man in heaven (Luke 21:36) AND the sun, moon, and darkening sky signaling His appearance after the tribulation in those days (v.29).

None of the things you propose make a secret stealing of watching and ready believers before the great tribulation impossible. Nothing [I] propose make it untrue that the days of the great tribulation are cut short by Him.

And nothing you propose negates that in Revelation 14 the total crop of God on the earth is seen as a rapture of Firstfruits to heaven and a gathering of Harvest to the air. The two reapings are separated by the major events of the great tribulation.

You just see a need to simplify something which is not that simple.

Matthew 24:4 - 31 is His exhortation to the disciples mainly as they are constituents of the messianic nation Israel.

Matthew 24:32 - 25:30 are His exhortation to them mainly as they are constituents of the new covenant church.

Much like the Jews who wanted to collapse the prephecies of Christ's first coming into the simplest terms - He comes to rid the invaders from Israel and set up His kingdom. They failed to grasp details about His being crucified and resurrected.

Similarly, the parousia of Christ you wish to conceive in the simplistic terms based on incomplete consideration of all the passages.

The pre-great triublation rapture could occur at any time. It could occur this afternoon. Yet there are no signs in the sun, moon and stars.

"And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." (v29)

That is quite a "heads up".
That is quite a cosmic prelude announcing something momentous is about to occur in the universe.

But this is warning of no particular "heads up" to signal the believer's removal.

"Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes." (v.42)

The signals here are much more of the declining morality of the age -

"For just as the days of Noah were, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. For they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day in which Noah entered into the ark, and they did not know that judgment was coming until the flood came and took all away, so also will the coming of the son of Man be." (vs.37-39)

Right after this you have a description of two people going undisturbed about the mundane duties of daily life. They are not standing around gazing at the cosmic calamities in the sky but going about normal duties.

"At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left. For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming" (v.41)

At the end of the GT with the calamities in the cosmos that is not really an hour when you do not expect Christ to appear.

I wrote:

Matthew 24:4 - 31 is His exhortation to the disciples mainly as they are constituents of the messianic nation Israel.

Matthew 24:32 - 25:30 are His exhortation to them mainly as they are constituents of the new covenant church.

My next posts, Lord willing, will attempt to prove this with more evidence.

Matthew 24:4 - 31 is His exhortation to the disciples mainly as they are constituents of the messianic nation Israel.

Matthew 24:32 - 25:30 are His exhortation to them mainly as they are constituents of the new covenant church.

Evidences:

In the first section many things spoken are too tied to Jewish culture per se -

1.) The abomination of desolation in the Jewish temple (v.15)
2.) The mention specifically of Judea (v.16)
3.) The specific mention of geography pertinent to Judea (v.16)
4.) The design of the Jewish flat roofed "housetop" (v.17)
5.) The mention of the Jewish Sabbath (v.20) [/b]
6.) The mention of false messiahs and false prophets (v.24)
( conceivably this is just as pertinent to the church )
7.) the "tribes of the land" means twelve tribes of the land of Israel (v.30).
8.) The gathering of His elect as fulfillment of God's gathering promises to Israel (Deut. 30:3-5; Isa. 43:5-7;49:9-13, 22-26; 51:11; 56:8; 60:4; 62:10-12; 27:13; Ezek. 34:13; 37:21; 28:25)

In the second section from verse 32 things are more spiritual than colloquial.

1.) The significance of things concerning Israel being like the sign of a ripening fig-tree (v.31)
2.) The tender branch meaning life has come back to Israel (v.32).
3.) The hour of our meeting Christ known only to the Father (v.36)
4.) The moral condition of the world compared to the days of Noah (v.37)
5.) The world wide flood being set forth as an example (v.38)
6.) Rapture during the mundane duties of typical human life (vs.40-43)
7.) Spiritual readiness required is emphasized rather than physical preparation. Compare verse 44 with verses 16 - 20.

The first section aimed at mostly physical preparation.
The second section emphasizes spiritual preparation.
8.) General warning about service to servants of Jesus Christ (v. 45).
9.) Possessions meaning more moral matters rather than physical ones (v.47) - duties of moral responsibility in reigning with Christ.
10.) The master coming when unexpected (v.50)
11.) The parable of the ten virgins with oil, vessels and lamps pointing to spiritual preparation, ie. Oil as a symbol of the Holy Spirit 25:1-13

Verses 4 - 31 are far more rooted in physical things.
Verses 32 on in more spiritual priorities.

Verses 4 - 31 is to the disciples mainly as constituents of the theocratic nation Israel.

Verse 32 and afterwards is to the disciples as constituents of the church as a spiritual entity.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] Why do you ignore that matthew 24:21-22, 27, 29-31 speaks of the great tribulation and that it will be cut short by the sudden coming of the Son of Man as lightning flashing from the east to the west and immediately after the tribulation of those days the gathering of the elect by the angels takes place?

Verse 36 and on is still talking about this ...[text shortened]... the calamities in the cosmos that is not really an hour when you do not expect Christ to appear.

But it appears to me that all that after Matthew 24 verse 29 is after the great tribulation, because it is said to be cut short by the coming of the Lord. Therefore any rapture, secret or not, must occur after the tribulation of those days acording to Matthew 24 and Revelation 14.

Originally posted by RJHinds

Verse 29 is about "after the tribulation of those days" .

I have said that throughout. I have never said that verse 29 is about a pre-great tribulation anything.

"Coming" in the KJV is a rendering of a word parousia which I spoke to some previously. It involves more than just the visible appearing of Christ as lightening at the end of the great tribulation.

While He is near the earth, clothed in a cloud (Rev. 10:1) BEFORE He is seen sitting upon the cloud, that is also a part of His parousia. His parousia would include His appearing to those who are suddenly taken as first ripe ones in His field before the Harvest.

His parousia would also be His physical descent to the near surface of the earth over the land of Israel, clothed in a cloud -

"And I saw another Angel [Christ as the Angel of Jehovah here] coming out of heaven, CLOTHED WITH A CLOUD; and a rainbow was upon His head; and His face was like the sun, and His feet like pillars of fire." (Rev. 10:1)

By this time He has WITH Him the early overcomers who were raptured before the great tribulation - a minority; a remnant who heeded the warning to WATCH.

He hides in a cloud and nature convulses cataclysmically at His presence. Yet it is unseen as of yet until He appears ON the cloud at the gathering of the Harvest -

"And I saw, and behold, there was a white cloud, and ON THE CLOUD One like the Son of Man sitting, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand ... Send forth your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe." (See Rev. 14:14-15)

They SHOULD have been ripe before. But only a remnant of ovecomers were ripe. Now thanks to the heat of the great tribulation the remainder left to pass through it have also become RIPE. And the hour of their rapture has thus come.

The sequence goes like this:

1.) He is in Heaven taking some overcomers to Himself.

2.) He begins His descent down to the earth with them (a minority).

3.) He arrives near the earth over the Holy Land clothed in a cloud.

4.) He manifests Himself upon the cloud and reaps the majority of believers as a ripened Harvest to join the early ripe firstruits and early raptured man-child.

5.) He establishes His judgment seat for believers in the air.

6.) He descends to the earth's surface with those duly rewarded to accompany Him to the final battle at Armageddon.

I think I have the steps correct here.

After we see Him sitting on the cloud reaping the harvest we see Him coming down from the cloud to lighten up the whole surface of the world -

"After these things I saw another Angel [Christ as the Angel of Jehovah] coming down out of heaven, having great authority; and the earth was illumined with His glory." (Rev. 18:1)

Originally posted by sonship
Thankyou lemon.

I did take this into account.

[b]" ... the words of the prophecy of this scroll ... " (v.18) " ... the words of the scroll of this prophecy ..." (v.19)

And I also consider God's general warning not to add to His word to Moses in Deut. 4:2; or to His words generally in Proverbs 30:6.

Back to pre- great trib ...[text shortened]... r heard of selective rapture proved in chapter 14, that would be something I would want to know.[/b]

I honestly find Revelations too difficult for me to be able to comment on many of the details. I would (literally) have to be a Hebrew scholar to understand what much of the imagery means. The same kind of problem exists today because idioms in one language can often have little or no meaning in another language.

I know this to be true because some years back I was corresponding with someone who could speak 5 languages, but was always asking me what I meant. That's when I realized how much of what I was saying was not literal. Almost anyone living in the U.S. would know what I was talking about, but it might sound like nonsense to someone not familiar with the idioms I grew up with and assumed were universally understood.

Originally posted by lemon lime
I honestly find Revelations too difficult for me to be able to comment on many of the details. I would (literally) have to be a Hebrew scholar to understand what much of the imagery means. The same kind of problem exists today because idioms in one language can often have little or no meaning in another language.

I know this to be true because some yea ...[text shortened]... to someone not familiar with the idioms I grew up with and assumed were universally understood.

Some expositors go into the original language quite much.

I get the most help from the extensive footnotes to the Recovery Version.

www.recoveryversion.org

Originally posted by sonship
Verse 29 is about [b]"after the tribulation of those days" .

I have said that throughout. I have never said that verse 29 is about a pre-great tribulation anything.

"Coming" in the KJV is a rendering of a word parousia which I spoke to some previously. It involves more than just the visible appearing of Christ as lightening at t ...[text shortened]... of heaven, having great authority; and the earth was illumined with His glory." (Rev. 18:1) [/b][/b]

Matthew 24:21-22, 27-31 indicates there will be a "great Tribulation" and those days will be cut short so that some will remain alive so that they can be (raptured) caught up to meet the resurrected saints and the Lord in the air immediately after the tribulation in accordance with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days...
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The Great Tribulation begins with the vision in Revelation 6 with a series of seven seals. The fifth seal shows the souls of most of those that were martyred and waiting for their completion and the revenge from the Lord. The sixth seal seems to be a preparation for the revenge and the wrath of the Lamb (Revelation 6:16-17) and the opening of the seventh seal and the seven trumpet judgments (Revelation 8:1)

In Revelation 7 before the wrath of the Lamb and before the four angels are allowed to hurt the earth, the seal of the living God is placed on the forehead of one hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel as the first fruits to God as is indicated in Revelation 14:3-4.

John also sees a vision of a great multitude from every nation, tribe, peoples, and tongues standing before the throne of God and the Lamb that are identified as ones who come out of the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9). Revelation 14:14-16 indicates the time of the harvest after the great tribulation.

The seventh and last trumpet is sounded by the angel in Revelation 11:15 and 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 as follows:

“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.’”

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Originally posted by RJHinds

Matthew 24:21-22, 27-31 indicates there will be a "great Tribulation" and those days will be cut short so that some will remain alive so that they can be (raptured) caught up to meet the resurrected saints and the Lord in the air immediately after the tribulation in accordance with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Point out where I have contradicted anything in this paragraph.
You're saying what I have been saying.

I have been adding to this the clear passages about rapture prior to the beginning of the great tribulation. Your problem is that you assume the whole body of believers just HAS to be raptured at the same time.

Again if that were the case we would not have been told of at least two installments of rapture -

1.) The firstfruits (Rev. 14:1-5) and the man-child (Rev. 12:5) plus those promised to be saved out of the hour of world wide trial (Rev. 3:10) plus the passage about prevailing to escape the world wide trial and stand before the Son of Man (Luke 21:36)

2.) The Harvest (Rev. 14:14-16) and the last trumpet rapture 1 Thess. 4:15 - 18

You can ignore the details but that does not make them vanish from the Bible.

Furthermore, I don't think you are reading 1 Thessalonians 4:15 - 18 with the careful astuteness which it requires.

Paul does not say merely "some who are left alive". He says under inspiration of the Holy Spirit -

"we who are living, who are left remaining" (v.15)

"we who are living, who are left remaining" (v.17)

If he only meant the believers who are living at the last trumpet, it would have been sufficient for him to write, as you wrote "some who are left alive".

That God led the apostle to write "we who are living, WHO ARE LEFT REMAINING" could indicate that some were living and were previously taken in rapture.

In that case those "who are left remaining" would mean the harvest at the end of the tribulation. The firstfruits by then have been taken already and would NOT be "left remaining" .

The saints raptured AFTER the "thousand two hundred and sixty days" would indeed be those"who are living, WHO ARE LEFT REMAINING" . But the man-child, the "THEY" caught up to the throne before those days would NOT be those "who are left remaining" because they were taken already.

Two things are involved - Living + Left Remaining.

You can ignore the details but they do not vanish from the Bible.

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

None of what I have discussed has the slightest influence on this shortening of days. And neither have I contradicted that.

We are just told that the days will be shortened. We have no real way of knowing from what length TO what lesser length. And one thousand two hundred and sixty days MAY INDEED be the result of God SHORTENING the days.

There is no point here for you.

For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The taking of the man-child prior to the one thousand two hundred and sixty days in not way makes His descent NOT like lightening flashing from east to west.

There is a false dichotomy in arguing that selective pre-great tribulation rapture means the days of the great tribulation will not be shortened OR that His final appearing at the last trumpet will not be dramatic as lightening.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days...
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The rapture of the man-child prior to the descent of the Devil or the emergence of the Antichrist in now way makes this passage not reliable.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

These passage in no way makes the rapture of the man-child prior to the one thousand two hundred and sixty days, impossible.

Also we believe caught up in the clouds to the air is not exactly the same as caught up to the throne of God in the third heavens or caught up to some heavenly Mount Zion in the third heavens.

The Great Tribulation begins with the vision in Revelation 6 with a series of seven seals. The sixth seal seems to be a preparation for the wrath of the Lamb (Revelation 6:16-17) and the opening of the seventh seal and the seven trumpet judgments (Revelation 8:1)

I will speak to the Sixth Seal in another post. It is a warning that the great tribulation is about to arrive.

Your mistake could be in that you regard all of the supernatural calamities to be a part of the great tribulation. It is easy to make that ASSUMPTION. However, the three WOES of trumpets 5, 6, 7 ARE the great tribulation.

The Great Tribulation begins with the vision in Revelation 6 with a series of seven seals. The fifth seal shows the souls of most of those that were martyred and waiting for their completion and the revenge from the Lord. The sixth seal seems to be a preparation for the revenge and the wrath of the Lamb (Revelation 6:16-17) and the opening of the seventh seal and the seven trumpet judgments (Revelation 8:1)

The great tribulation begins AFTER the opening of the Sixth Seal.
But supernatural calamities are present at this warning of the Sixth Seal.
The fifth, sixth, and seventh trumpet contain the great tribulation.

Why you believe that the great tribulation starts with the opening of the Sixth Seal ?

In Revelation 7 before the wrath of the Lamb and before the four angels are allowed to hurt the earth, the seal of the living God is placed on the forehead of one hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel as the first fruits to God as is indicated in Revelation 14:3-4.

Why do you believe that any hurting of the the earth and sea has to be the great tribulation ?

Why isn't it believable to you that before the great tribulation there could be the hurting of the earth and sea ?

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] The Great Tribulation begins with the vision in Revelation 6 with a series of seven seals. The fifth seal shows the souls of most of those that were martyred and waiting for their completion and the revenge from the Lord. The sixth seal seems to be a preparation for the revenge and the wrath of the Lamb (Revelation 6:16-17) and the opening of the sev ...[text shortened]... vable to you that before the great tribulation there could be the hurting of the earth and sea ?

You are acting like a complete idiot. I know you can read better than that.

No, I did NOT say the tribulation begins after the opening of the 6th seal. It begins with the opening of the 1st seal, 2nd seal, 3rd seal, and 4th seal. By the fifth seal many of the souls of the martyred are already underneath the alter requesting the judging and avenging of their blood, but are told that they must rest a little while longer until the rest of their brethren and fellow servants are killed as they were.

Chapter 7 deals with the sealing of the 144,000 so they can go through the 7th seal trumpet judgment wrath of the Lamb and the remaing tribulation of the wrath of Satan unharmed. The 144,000 are set aside as the first fruits to God, but I don't believe they are raptured from the earth, but are used on the earth against the Antichrist and the false prophet.

I already told you that the man-child represents Jesus and the woman represents Israel.

It begins with the opening of the 1st seal, 2nd seal, 3rd seal, and 4th seal.

Some people assume the first four seals must be about the great tribulation. However the preaching of the gospel, war, famine, death, and the sweeping of souls into Hades have been occurring for the last 20 centuries. There is no particlar reason to insist the the four horses and their riders does not refer to all human history since the ascension of Christ.

Some think the first rider on a white horse is Antichrist. They naturally assume then that the four horses pertain to when Antichrist is active.

"And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying like the sound of thunder, Come. And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and he who sits on it had a bowl and a crown was given to him, and he went forth conquering and to conquer. (Rev. 6:1,2)

Does that have to be Antichrist and does this have to mean therefore the time of the great tribulation? No.

The "white horse" more likely represents something clean, pure, just, and APPROVABLE . Antichrist is not clean, not just, not pure, and not approvable.

The white horse and its rider is sometimes thought to represent Jesus Christ. But it would be more expected that the conquering one as Christ would appear AFTER the negative horse's and riders to follow rather than before.

The white horse and its rider stands for the preaching of the Gospel of Christ. In history sense the ascension of Christ, the main thing in human history is the approvable, clean, just, and pure preaching of the Gospel. In the eyes of God and of man the preaching of the Gospel is positive.

The rider has a crown and a bow, yet without the mention of an arrow. The Gospel is crowned with glory -

" ... the illumination of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, might shine on them." (2 Cor. 4:4b)

The true Gospel is crowned and glorious. The Gospel as announced by men like the apostles and faithful Christ living servants of Jesus, is approvable, pure, clean, just and even glorious.

The bow without the arrow means that the arrow has already been discharged into the enemy. The victory of the defeat of Satan by Christ is the bases of the Gospel. And the proclamation of peace is announced throughout the world.

The arrow has been shot into the heart of the enemy to kill him. And the Gospel preaching runs victoriously to proclaim Christ's finished work. This is the meaning of the rider with a bow yet no arrow.

A bow with an arrow is for fighting. But here the is a bow without an arrow. This indicates that the arrow has already been shot to destroy the enemy and that the victory has been won for the constituting of the gospel of peace. Now the fighting is over, and the gospel of preace is being proclaimed in a peaceful way.

[ Footnote 2(3) of Rev. 6:2, Recovery Version ]

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Of the first four horses and riders of the Four Seals, the first is gloriously positive and the others are negative. This is a view of world history since the ascension of Christ. The first four seals then are not limited to the three and one half years of the great tribulation.

Beginning from the first century - the gospel, war, famine, and death began to run like riders on four horses, and they will continue until Christ physically returns.

The events signified by the first four seals are not relegated only to the last 3.5 years of this age. Rather they teach us how to view human history since the ascension of Christ. The most prominent thing that is occurring on earth is the glorious spread of the Gospel of Christ. Behind this first horse in this four horse race are the bad things of war, famine, and death.

Without God's revelation we probably would have another view of history. That is that mostly it is filled with wars, famines, and death and the Gospel preaching was an also-ran. This vision of the first four seals gives preeminence firstly to the finished and victorious accomplishment of of Jesus and the announcement that He has secured peace for us who believe into Him.

Above we see there is no reason not to view the first four horses and riders of the Four Seals of the Seven Seals to not be representative of the last 20 centuries since the ascension of Christ.

What I am doing is leading up to defining when the great tribulation stars in Revelation. This has to be understood in order to understand the early and latter rapture.

Chapter 7 deals with the sealing of the 144,000 so they can go through the 7th seal trumpet judgment wrath of the Lamb and the remaing tribulation of the wrath of Satan unharmed. The 144,000 are set aside as the first fruits to God, but I don't believe they are raptured from the earth, but are used on the earth against the Antichrist and the false prophet.

A serious reader of Revelation may have to contemplate:

1.) Is the number 144,000 used for more than one group of people.

2.) Is the number 144,000 used for only one group of people.

I believe that it is a significant number but used for more than one group of people.

There is clarity that the sealed ones from the twelve tribes of Israel are preserved. But it is also clear that the 144,000 firstfruits are seen not preserved during tribulation but in heaven BEFORE it.

Where does the sound of them come from, earth or heaven ?

"And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads ... And I heard a voice out of heaven ..." (14:1,2)

In chapter 7 that group of Isrealites are sealed with the seal of the living God. "And I saw another Angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God ..." (7:2a)

In chapter 14 that group is sealed with with the name of the Father and the Son -

" ... and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads."

The seal of the living God and the Angel as another Angel may related to the Jews of the twelve tribes.

The seal of the Lamb's name and the their Father's name may relate more to the new covenant disciples of the human Redeemer, the slain Godman Jesus.

I submit that we are dealing with a spiritual number 144,000 used more than once for more than one group of saints.

Chapter 7 reveals elect from the twelve tribes of Israel preserved though tribulation. Chapter 14 reveals new covenant sons of the Father in life raptured before the great tribulation starts as firstfruits.

Both are vitally important to God's economy.

... the man-child represents Jesus and the woman represents Israel.

The plural pronouns "THEY" and "THEM" and "THEIR" (12:10,11) point to the man-child as being a collective group, a corporate entity.

The catching up of the man-child should not mean the ascension of Jesus. He was not made to ascend to heaven as a baby. And there was no particularly harsh time of persecution of Israel after He was born. There was no opening of the earth in history after either the birth or ascension of Christ, to swallow the armies of Satan.

"And the serpent cast water as a river out of his mouth after the woman that he might cause her to be carried away by its current. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowd the river which tehdragon cast out of his mouth." (Rev. 12:15,16)

This probably refers to some dramatic supernatural occurrence in those days to come. Nothing from the first century corresponds to this happening to Israel.

But when some minority of Christians are raptured, it is likely as the supernatural reaction of the two witnesses, some other event dramatically protects all of God's saints on earth in some way from being completely carried away by Satan's persecution.

We do not know what this opening of the earth is. But the man-child should not represent Jesus individually. For to shepherd the nations (Rev. 12:5) with an iron rod is also the promise to collective that overcome (Rev. 2:26).

"And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him Iwill give authority over the nations; And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father." (12:26,27)

Satan could not stop Christ from overcoming. And he seeks to stop members of Christ's Body from entering into the same overcoming. Satan seeks desperately to keep us from entering into that portion which we can share with Christ -

" ... as I ALSO have received from My Father."

The man-child is a unit, a corporate "THEY" who overcome, a collective fighting army. The symbol is not of the baby Jesus immediately after He was born from the nation Israel.

The Woman that brings forth the man-child represents all of God's people from Genesis to the end of the Bible. She becomes New Jerusalem.