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Originally posted by lemon limeIm curious about a couple things pertaining to this statement you made
I'm no expert on the subject of pre-tribulation rapture (or no pre-trib rapture) but doesn't this happen about the same time the Spirit will be withdrawn from the earth?
If the Spirit is withdrawn (removed) what does this mean for the people who had already received the Holy Spirit Jesus promised to them? Jesus said he will never leave or abandon anyon ...[text shortened]... ho go back into the water, and the promise of never being abandoned ends up being null and void.
Jesus said he will never leave or abandon anyone who receives him,
- is there is reference in the Bible that says this the way you did? ie Christ saying that to all CHristians
- if what you say is in fact implied in the Bible then what about a case where people who once 'received Christ' [various meanings can be put to that], turned against Christ afterward.
Thanks.
Originally posted by Rajk999Probably not exactly as I said it. It's been awhile since reading of this promise, and I'm relying strictly on memory, but I believe there is more than one place I've seen it expressed. And I'm assuming this applies to people who do not later reject Christ to the point where God decides to withdraw and leave them to their own devices.
Im curious about a couple things pertaining to this statement you made
Jesus said he will never leave or abandon anyone who receives him,
- is there is reference in the Bible that says this the way you did? ie Christ saying that to all CHristians
- if what you say is in fact implied in the Bible then what about a case where people who once 'received Christ' [various meanings can be put to that], turned against Christ afterward.
Thanks.
People who have received Gods spirit being drawn up at the same time the Spirit is withdrawn is something that occurred to me recently (a few months ago). It's not a part of doctrine (so far as I know) but simply an idea of how (and why) the rapture might happen. If Jesus will not abandon those who possess the Spirit, and the Spirit is withdrawn from the earth, then it seems logical (in a mechanical sort of way) that if the Spirit leaves then so will the people who possess the Spirit.
Jesus said "I will make you fishers of men". Drop a net into the water, and whatever is in the net will come up with the net.
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Originally posted by sonshipI do not think this means the Holy Spirit is completely absent from the earth during the great tribulation.I'm no expert on the subject of pre-tribulation rapture (or no pre-trib rapture) but doesn't this happen about the same time the Spirit will be withdrawn from the earth?
Some think the Holy Spirit will be withdrawn from the earth during the great tribulation. I don't think this is true.
For one, the two [b]"sons of oil" in Revel ...[text shortened]...
So, missing an early rapture is not losing the Holy Spirit or being lost to eternal perdition.[/b]
I don't believe the Holy Spirit is completely absent from anywhere, but as a restrainer (and helper) I believe the Spirit will be withdrawn.
I don't know this for a fact because I can't know this for a fact... It's just speculation based on what I've read. I need to say that because I don't want to give the impression I know something that I don't (because I literally can't) actually know.
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Originally posted by lemon lime
I don't believe the Holy Spirit is completely absent from anywhere, but as a restrainer (and helper) I believe the Spirit will be withdrawn.
It is possible that as a restrainer He is withdrawn but not as a Helper to the saints, He is.
Genesis 6:3 speaks of God's Spirit striving with men before the days of the flood.
"And Jehovah said, My Spirit will not strive with men forever, for he indeed is flesh; ..."
Maybe the one who restrains means something similar to this. I am not sure what this restrainer refers to. But the Spirit of God functioning to restrain evil doing is plausible.
I don't know this for a fact because I can't know this for a fact... It's just speculation based on what I've read. I need to say that because I don't want to give the impression I know something that I don't (because I literally can't) actually know.
There may be a reason why we do not yet know. And there may come a time when it becomes clear to the Lord's people when the need for that light is paramount.
Originally posted by sonshipThe verse that says we will know as we have been known (or you will know as you have been known) has always intrigued me. There is nothing about me that God doesn't know, so I take that verse to mean I will have all my questions answered... and then some.I don't believe the Holy Spirit is completely absent from anywhere, but as a restrainer (and helper) I believe the Spirit will be withdrawn.
It is possible that as a restrainer He is withdrawn but not as a Helper to the saints, He is.
[b]Genesis 6:3 speaks of God's Spirit striving with men before the days of the flood.
...[text shortened]... ome a time when it becomes clear to the Lord's people when the need for that light is paramount.
Originally posted by lemon limeAmen.
The verse that says we will know as we have been known (or you will know as you have been known) has always intrigued me. There is nothing about me that God doesn't know, so I take that verse to mean I will have all my questions answered... and then some.
We are to know God and we are to know Christ in one another.
And an overflowing love saturates both.
The love of Christ surpasses all knowledge.
"And to know the knowledge-surpassing love of Christ, that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God." (Eph. 3:19)
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Manny,
Problem is with the pre-trib doctrine is that we only see Christ physical return one time and this is at last Trump as Paul describes it. We don't see Christ coming secretly and taking away his super faithful then coming again later or a 2nd time. It's one single event. The souls seen at or under the alter in the book of Revelation are said to have come out of the great tribulation but probably for being faithful and then being killed for their faith during the great tribulation. If you notice they want justice and their told to wait a bit longer.
Manny
PS it ain't about being macho who would want to go through tribulation trust me I would pass if God made that possible
Manny, perhaps I was too hard on you in suggesting that you were longing passing through the great tribulation in some macho manner. I apologize.
I want to spend some time on the word Parousia which KJV translates usually as "coming" . Examining more closely what the word parousia means, I think, helps to understand the events around Christ's return.
The word "parousia" states merely a stationary presence and is a "coming" only when it is linked with words which imply motion.
F. T. Bassett says "it is not merely coming, but actual personal presence"
The word is sometimes used for a static rather than dynamic proximity.
" ... even as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence" (Phil. 2:12)
Here the word parousia is simply concerned with a person's static presence rather than his dynamic "coming" with motion.
Likewise the Transfiguration of the Lord was not a descending, but a stationary parousia -
" ... we made known to you the power and coming [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we became eyewitnesses of that One's majesty ... we were with him in the holy mount." (See 2 Pet. 1:16-18)
The "parousia of Christ" is the inspired expression of the Holy Spirit, is a expression of His presence in the immediate neighborhood of the earth. It is proximity "in air".
In James, we have a similar situation when he speaks of the Judge that "stands before the doors" (James 5:9).
The early rapture will take people up to the third heavens before the great tribulation. Christ will come in a hidden way and hover near to the surface of the earth. This proximity near the earth is part of His parousia.
You wrote:
Problem is with the pre-trib doctrine is that we only see Christ physical return one time and this is at last Trump as Paul describes it.
But you see the parousia includes more than just that scene of His physical descent.
The presence of Christ in the end times, ie the parousia should include also the rapture of any pre-triublation overcomers to Him even to the third heavens.
"And as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, When will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming [parousia] and of the consummation of the age." (Matt. 24:3)
Verses 37 - 42 cover this parousia of Christ also. More than the physical descent in Second Thessalonians at the last trumpet is covered by the Lord's parousia. It would include early ripened Firstfruits (Rev. 14) and a Manchild (Rev. 12) taken to Him pre-tribulation.
For length's sake I will continue latter.
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Originally posted by sonshipThere will be no pre-tribulation rapture, in the concept of a great escape off planet earth.
The entire church will not be raptured pre-tribulation.
Some will.
We can practice by being mini-raptured away from temptations by turning to the Lord Jesus and whisked away in the Spirit from ourselves.
I believe that rapture physical will be easy for those who practice to let the indwelling Lord Jesus rise up within them and snatch them away fro ...[text shortened]... d endure through enjoying His indwelling presence. He is the mighty One. He is the powerful one.
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Originally posted by PudgenikIf there is no pre-tribulation rapture then there will be no great tribulation.
There will be no pre-tribulation rapture, in the concept of a great escape off planet earth.
If you did not read my posts on this perhaps you should. A remnant, a selected minority of overcoming saints being raptured is the catalyst that ignites Satan's coming down to start his final ultimate persecutions upon God's elect.
Let me say it again. The rapture of a group of overcoming saints called the Manchild is the strategic move in the spiritual warfare which causes the great tribulation to start.
So escape is only one angle.
Strategic advantage of the saints over Satan is the other result of this early rapture.
Read Revelation chapter 12 carefully. And answer these questions.
1.) What or who is the manchild ?
2.) Why is Satan and his angels driven down to the earth ?
3.) What happens as a result of Satan and angels being driven down ?
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Originally posted by sonshipI don't need to read your statements to tell you, without a doubt, I know there will be no pre-tribulation rapture.
If there is no pre-tribulation rapture then there will be no great tribulation.
If you did not read my posts on this perhaps you should. A remnant, a selected minority of overcoming saints being raptured is the catalyst that ignites Satan's coming down to start his final ultimate persecutions upon God's elect.
Let me say it again. The rapture of a g ...[text shortened]... en down to the earth ?
3.) What happens as a result of Satan and angels being driven down ?
You do not know me, my friend. But I can guarantee anyone who believes it to be true is wrong.
By the way, I do read your statements.
It isn't by your arguments and statements, it isn't by any theory that I say that I know this. It is because of whom I am. I am the servant of the Most High God.
Originally posted by PudgenikNice one. I believe you.
I don't need to read your statements to tell you, without a doubt, I know there will be no pre-tribulation rapture.
You do not know me, my friend. But I can guarantee anyone who believes it to be true is wrong.
By the way, I do read your statements.
It isn't by your arguments and statements, it isn't by any theory that I say that I know this. It is because of whom I am. I am the servant of the Most High God.
People like sonship believe that they can argue their way around the truth. He got that from Witness Lee. For him apparently Witness Lee is a higher authority that God himself.
Originally posted by lemon limeOk thanks. I think we are in agreement.
Probably not exactly as I said it. It's been awhile since reading of this promise, and I'm relying strictly on memory, but I believe there is more than one place I've seen it expressed. And I'm assuming this applies to people who do not later reject Christ to the point where God decides to withdraw and leave them to their own devices.
People who have r ...[text shortened]... ishers of men". Drop a net into the water, and whatever is in the net will come up with the net.
Originally posted by sonshipSonship, I hope you don't think I am harping on you here, I am not. But I want to just say, so you think you know Revelations, eh.
Manny,
[quote]Problem is with the pre-trib doctrine is that we only see Christ physical return one time and this is at last Trump as Paul describes it. We don't see Christ coming secretly and taking away his super faithful then coming again later or a 2nd time. It's one single event. The souls seen at or under the alter in the book of Revelation are said ...[text shortened]... child (Rev. 12) taken to Him pre-tribulation.
For length's sake I will continue latter.[/b]
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Originally posted by sonship1.) What or who is the manchild ?
If there is no pre-tribulation rapture then there will be no great tribulation.
If you did not read my posts on this perhaps you should. A remnant, a selected minority of overcoming saints being raptured is the catalyst that ignites Satan's coming down to start his final ultimate persecutions upon God's elect.
Let me say it again. The rapture of a g ...[text shortened]... en down to the earth ?
3.) What happens as a result of Satan and angels being driven down ?
Jesus the Christ
2.) Why is Satan and his angels driven down to the earth ?
There was a War in heaven against Michael and his angels.
3.) What happens as a result of Satan and angels being driven down ?
Satan persecutes Israel.
I first look at 2000 years of Church history ( yes I know these were mere men) but the church did not believe in a pre-trib rapture until the 1800's and also I look to the authority of scriptures and I honestly do not see a pre-trib rapture .....I do see the 144,000 being set apart as first fruit but as I said we see in the book of Revelation those who are said to have come out of the great tribulation .....John asked who are these ? But the time was not yet over as these souls are seen under the alter of God crying out for God to bring about justice !! Also Jesus says stand until the end to earn the crown of life 🙂 of course with His Grace through all things
Manny