Revelation 6:9------onward Martyrs NASB version
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
Manny
Revelation 7:
A Multitude from the Tribulation
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
“Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying,
“Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”
Manny
I guess we can argue what coming out of the great tribulation means
Originally posted by menace71Manny, I will be dealing with Scriptures primarily. I don't think we should look for the Holy Spirit "with a traditional flavor" instead of dealing with the word of God. We should look for the Holy Spirit opening up Scripture.
I first look at 2000 years of Church history ( yes I know these were mere men) but the church did not believe in a pre-trib rapture until the 1800's and also I look to the authority of scriptures and I honestly do not see a pre-trib rapture .....I do see the 144,000 being set apart as first fruit but as I said we see in the book of Revelation those who are ...[text shortened]... ntil the end to earn the crown of life 🙂 of course with His Grace through all things
Manny
Had we been around after 1,000 years of Roman Catholicism and argued tradition, we might have regarded the Reformation as not the old conservative traditional way of the Church. And we would have missed the Holy Spirit guiding us into all of the truth.
So if you want to reason from the Bible, that commands more serious regard from this poster.
Now I am very reasonable. And serious complaints with what I have presented I will examine with you. At least you can see how I think of those issues.
So first I would mention that there can be little room for argument about the Manchild raptured to the throne as to TIMING. There may be issues about IDENTITY. But there seems no room for argument about TIMING.
When the Manchild is raptured there commences immediately afterward three and a half years of severe trouble. The woman who brought forth this raptured Manchild flees the persecution a thousand two hundred and sixty days (Rev. 12:6)
This period is also called "forty two months" in which the dragon gives to the beast evil authority to blaspheme and persecute God's people on the earth (Rev. 13:5).
This period is also the "a thousand two hundred and sixty days" in which God raises up two witnesses to testify strongly in reaction to the Satanic testimony of the two beasts (Rev. 11:3).
This period is also the "time and times and half a time" (12:14) probably meaning a year + two years + half a year of the great tribulation.
(The great tribulation being three and one half years rather than the popularized error - seven years).
The Manchild goes up to the throne of God.
The great tribulation begins virtually right after.
I don't think there is room for serious disagreement.
Then since the Manchild's catching up to God's throne in heaven is undisputably pre-great tribulation, the only other immediate issue to solve is what the Manchild represents.
This requires more time. However if like one poster you insist that the Manchild is Christ who is to rule the nations with an iron rod (Rev. 12:5) it has to be noted that the promise to co-reign with Christ is indeed given to those who overcome.
Compare:
"And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. " (v.12)
"And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; and he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father." (Rev. 3:27)
As Jesus has received from His Father to shepherd nations with a strong iron rod so also some overcoming ones will be rewarded to accompany Him. In Revelation 19 Christ descends in preparation to carry out this ruling the nations with an iron rod ACCOMPANIED by a bridal army that matches Him, corresponds with Him, echoes His concerns and shares His victory:
"And the armies which are in heaven followed Him [Christ the King of kings and Lord of lords] on white horses, dressed in fine linen white and clean. And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; ..." (Rev. 19:14,15a)
The Manchild does what Christ does WITH Christ. Christ takes the lead and they follow as a reward. They do nothing to accomplish the work of redemption. But they do co-inherit with Christ the government of the nations that pass from the great tribulation into the millennial kingdom age.
The plural pronouns of the overcoming ones as "THEY" and "THEIR" and "THEM" best refer to the man-child.
"And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses THEM before our God day and night. And THEY overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of THEIR testimony, and THEY loved not THEIR soul-life even unto death." (Rev. 12:10,11)
This rapture of this collective of overcoming saints is pre-great tribulation.
Cont. below
Originally posted by lemon lime
People who have received Gods spirit being drawn up at the same time the Spirit is withdrawn is something that occurred to me recently (a few months ago). It's not a part of doctrine (so far as I know) but simply an idea of how (and why) the rapture might happen. If Jesus will not abandon those who possess the Spirit, and the Spirit is withdrawn from the earth, then it seems logical (in a mechanical sort of way) that if the Spirit leaves then so will the people who possess the Spirit.
Jesus said "I will make you fishers of men". Drop a net into the water, and whatever is in the net will come up with the net.
Lemon, I have been contemplating your post for much of the afternoon. I re-checked some things.
I think you may have helped me to solve something about this mysterious one who restrains and is taken out of the way. Your post may have helped to shine some light on how this should be understood.
I'll get back to you about your concept and my thoughts on it. They may tend to have moved over in agreement with you. I checked some writings also or the man who had a nickname of "the prince of prophecy" D.M. Panton.
He agrees that the Holy Spirit has to be the one restrianing evil BUT it is the Holy Spirit distributed into a collective group of saints, whose rapture pre-great tribulation removes the restraint.
Now if the man-child raptured and the Firstfruits raptured are overcomers then their overcoming while on earth would indeed be a restraining power - like the salt of the earth which Jesus said His kingdom people should be.
But then when they arrive in the third heavens, neither would there be room any longer for Satan to be free to roam in and out of God's court to accuse them.
So I am leaning on this:
On one hand the rapture of these ovecoming saints removes an impediment to evil running totally amock on earth.
On the other hand their victorious rapture leaves no room longer for Satan to slander that God has not normal saints upon the earth. His lies are exposed and the ministering spirits, the angels led by Michael, drive him down limited now to only the surface of the earth.
"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul life even unto death.
Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. WOE to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (Rev. 12:11,12)
That short time being the three and one half years of the great tribulation - now that restraint has been removed on earth and no more freedom to accuse the saints before God in heaven exists (Job style) (Job 1:6-12;2:1-6).
Originally posted by menace71This vision of the numberless multitude which came out of great tribulation, I believe, is referring to the general total saved human beings from all history in every age.
Revelation 7:
A Multitude from the Tribulation
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
...[text shortened]... rom their eyes.”
Manny
I guess we can argue what coming out of the great tribulation means
It is tempting to understand John to mean that they came out of THE specific great tribulation of the last three and one half years of this age. But I think what the Scriptures means is that they came out of the tribulation of the entire human history since the fall of man.
Secondly, this vision is an insertion between sixth seal (Rev. 6:12-17) and the seventh seal (Rev.8:1-2)
The purpose of this whole chapter 7 is to insert between the sixth and seventh seal the assurance of God's preservation of His elect from the Jews and the Gentiles of His purpose, even though His wrath is about to be poured out on the earth.
I will talk more about Revelation 7 probably. But for now we see Jews from the twelve tribes preserved by a seal. And we see the scene of the entire world's population of the saved from every age and every earth epoch standing before the throne of God coming out of all the total world's tribulation since the fall of Adam.
That all are seen standing in heaven before the throne of God preparing for the eternal age does not prove that all were raptured at one time. And it doesn't provide enough to nullify that Firstfruits and Man-child are raptured before the three and one half years of specific great tribulation closing this age.
Standing before the throne indicates that the great multitude of the redeemed must have been raptured to the heavens, to the presence of God. Standing ... before the Lamb corresponds with stand before the Son of Man (Luke 21:36) , which clearly indicates the rapture. That this is mentioned immediately after the opening of the sixth seal implies that the rapture of the believers must begin before the sixth seal.
Does that make sense to any of you? The vision following the sixth seal implies that rapture had begun BEFORE the sixth seal. So that would include pre-great tribulation raptured saints. But the number is so great that it surely implies any and all saints raptured who are positioned to enter the eternal age.
The footnote of the RcV continues:
The record in vv. 9 - 17 describe in a general way the scene from the time of the rapture of the believers to their enjoyment in eternity.
The great tribulation here is different from the great tribulation mentioned in Matt.24:21. The great tribulation here refers to the tribulations, sufferings, persecutions, and afflictions throughout the ages.
What is depicted in vv. 15 - 17, similar to what is depicted in 21:3-4 and 22:3-5, is a portrait of eternity.
Now I realize that most of the Christians reading this have never heard this before. So you're suspicious.
Who teaches that the man-child in Revelation 12 is a corporate group of people ? No one that I know of.
Brothers look at that chapter and assume things like Mary and the Baby Jesus. Or they see Israel and the Baby Jesus. But who talks about the woman as being a corporate group and within her another smaller corporate group of overcomers?
Who then would the plural pronouns refer to in Revelation 12:10 -
1.) The pronouns "they" and "Their" and "them" should not refer to the good angels led by Michael.
Though the good angels do defeat Satan they certainly do not do so by "the blood of the Lamb" -
"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb ..."
This indicates that the overcomers are the humans which are in need of the redemptive blood of Christ shed on Calvary. That is not the need of the angels.
2.) The pronouns "they" and "Their" and "them" should not refer to the women who flees to the wilderness. Though she represents a collective group of people, it appears that they are being harassed to the point that the Bible says the beast is overcoming them.
"And permission was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and authority was given to him over very tribe and people and tongue and nation." (13:7)
The rest of the seed of the woman (12:17), though protected by the earth and nourished by the nourishers (12:6), is not likely the referent to the "they" who overcame the Devil.
So if the collective is not the angels and is not the rest of the seed of the woman, then who are they ? There is no one else to be the referent except the man-child.
There is simply no one else in the chapter that we may better interpret Revelation 12:10 to.
"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul life even unto death."
Satan's stronghold is in the soul life of man. That is the SELF of man. The SELF is something that came into being at the fall of man. And throughout the New Testament Jesus exhorted us to deny ourself in order to follow Him. See (Matt. 10:35; Luke 17:33; John 12:25; Rev. 12:11).
When Christ secures a people on earth who deny themselves in favor of the enjoyment of the indwelling Christ within them, that is a defeat to the Devil and a bringing in of the kingdom of God. It also shuts the mouth of the accuser that we Christians only care for our own skins rather than the will of God.
The redemptive blood shuts the Devil's mouth.
The proclamation of the divine facts as our testimony shuts his mouth.
And the denying of the fallen self for abiding and enjoying Christ shuts his mouth.
Rapture - therefore is not merely an ESCAPE, though it is that (Luke 21:36) . It is also a strategic victory in the spiritual warfare tipping the scales in the heavenlies in favor of God's kingdom to the detriment of Satan's.
Do not let anyone portray to you either positively or negatively that Rapture is ONLY a philosophy of escape.
When the man-child is raptured from the larger body of believers TO the throne in heaven - the angels who are the ministering servants of the saints probably receive the command FROM the overcomers to go to war against the bad angels.
It is usually missed that there is a direct connection between the man-child's rapture and the driving down of Satan and his angels.
" And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod, and her child was caught up to God and to His throne (v.5) ... And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon." (v.7)
When Satan the accuser of the human brothers who have been raptured, the proclamation is made -
"Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night." (v.10)
Christ will not reign ALONE.
Christ will not rule ALONE.
Christ seeks those who match Him to reign with Him.
Everyone reading this post has the unspeakable privileged of joining His victory over the enemy of God for this planet.
Reality is more fascinating than fiction.
Originally posted by sonshipIt does appear we are on the same page if not the exact same paragraph or line. I'm a bit more trusting of the overview than in details, and I'm not entirely convinced of any details I might come up with. And neither should any one else, because I'm most speculating based on what I have read in the Bible.
[quote] People who have received Gods spirit being drawn up at the same time the Spirit is withdrawn is something that occurred to me recently (a few months ago). It's not a part of doctrine (so far as I know) but simply an idea of how (and why) the rapture might happen. If Jesus will not abandon those who possess the Spirit, and the Spirit is withdrawn from ...[text shortened]... ]accuse the saints before God in heaven exists (Job style) (Job 1:6-12;2:1-6).[/b]
The way I see it the restrainer of evil would have to be the Spirit. It couldn't be anything else. It certainly wouldn't be the one who is eager to accomplish evil, because he is the one being restrained. Jesus said let the wheat and tares grow together until they can safely be separated, so I believe the purpose of restraining evil is to prevent some events from happening before their time.
It may be uncomfortable for many of us to go through this, but it tells me that even when it seems God is no longer in control he actually is. He will let things happen for a season, even it means letting evil come to fruition, but this doesn't mean he approves of evil or has lost control. He knows how this will all go down, so I'm putting my "money on" the outcome HE says is inevitable.
in this context "money on" means "trust in"
Originally posted by lemon lime
It does appear we are on the same page if not the exact same paragraph or line. I'm a bit more trusting of the overview than in details, and I'm not entirely convinced of any details I might come up with. And neither should any one else, because I'm most speculating based on what I have read in the Bible.
It may disappoint you that I will maintain some details if not an exhaustive amount of detail.
The Holy Spirit invites us to use wisdom on occasion to ascertain details of prophecy.
IE. "Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred sixty six." (Rev. 13:18)
This is just an example of the inspired Scriptures inviting the believer to apply wisdom with scripture to calculate some details.
Originally posted by sonshipI didn't mean to imply details found in prophesy can't be trusted. What I meant was prophesy is an overview, and some details cannot be understood until the time comes.It does appear we are on the same page if not the exact same paragraph or line. I'm a bit more trusting of the overview than in details, and I'm not entirely convinced of any details I might come up with. And neither should any one else, because I'm most speculating based on what I have read in the Bible.
It may disappoint you that I wil ...[text shortened]... pired Scriptures inviting the believer to apply wisdom with scripture to calculate some details.
There are details in prophesy that would sound like nonsense to anyone a few thousand years ago, but are perfectly understandable today. A lot has changed in the past few thousand years.
Originally posted by menace71During the tribulation many Christians will die, yet many more will fall away from true faith. Some of this is due to the teaching of pre-trib rapture, but more so from the fact that the anti-Christ will blame the Christians for the worlds problems. It will be a tough time to be a Christian. But don't fear (fear is the mind killer...Dune) It will also be the greatest time of the Christians. In faith, you will be able to wave your hand under the scope and buy your grocieries. (mark of the beast) But you won't have the mark. And God's seal will be on your foreheads.
Revelation 7:
A Multitude from the Tribulation
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
...[text shortened]... rom their eyes.”
Manny
I guess we can argue what coming out of the great tribulation means
It will also be the time of great faith amoung all Christians.
Your faith will grow leaps and bounds beginning with the Great Day of the Lord. Six months later, god will send a great miricle. But know this, the tribulation will come after. I expect within a year after the Great Day.
There are some who are eager for Revelation to take place, i for one am not. Does this surprize some of you who know me? When it comes, the trib, you will understand, fully.
As for Revelations, it has already begun. The peace treaty between Egypt and Isreal was the sign. It is the First Seal.
Originally posted by sonshipDid you know that at the U.N. seat number 666 is vacant.It does appear we are on the same page if not the exact same paragraph or line. I'm a bit more trusting of the overview than in details, and I'm not entirely convinced of any details I might come up with. And neither should any one else, because I'm most speculating based on what I have read in the Bible.
It may disappoint you that I wil ...[text shortened]... pired Scriptures inviting the believer to apply wisdom with scripture to calculate some details.
Originally posted by lemon lime
I didn't mean to imply details found in prophesy can't be trusted. What I meant was prophesy is an overview, and some details cannot be understood until the time comes.
Absolutely. What we get in prophecy is the tip of the iceberg. And fulfillment will contain many more things. I agree and understand you better now.
There are details in prophesy that would sound like nonsense to anyone a few thousand years ago, but are perfectly understandable today. A lot has changed in the past few thousand years.
This is the danger I notice when posters respond that traditional understandings have never said this or that. A number of times some have reacted to analysis by saying "This was invented by such and such person 200 years ago. The Church has always thought, however, thus and such."
I think our caution is good but has to be based upon the word of God. we have to allow for the Holy Spirit to lead the church into all the truth as Christ promised.
The Holy Spirit as a restraining power in the New Testament is the Person imparted into the believers. God's Spirit is distributed into the church. And if the churching people are normal they act as "the salt of the earth".
Salt is a preservative which prevents the meat from rotting altogether. Christ is saying that the saints on earth, if normal, should have a preserving function halting the downward slide of society into total moral rottenness.
So it is conceivable that the removing of the restraining one is concurrent with the removal of a remnant of overcoming normal salty Christians in early rapture. It is possible.
The Spirit and the Bride so speak together in Revelation 22 that the harmony arrived at eventually is total oneness -
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! And let him who is thirsty come; let him take the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17)
We would normally think of the bride to be paired with the bridegroom. Here the bride is paired with the Spirit because the bridegroom Jesus Christ has become the indwelling Spirit in the church. Of course the Godman Jesus has an eternal outward existence as He sits upon the throne. But He is also the divine life of the church, the bride.
So the Spirit and the bride speak together. The point here is that the Third of of the Triune God is distributed perfectly INTO the corporate entity, the church to produce Christ's Bride and Wife.
Referring back to the overcomers, they being in oneness with the Spirit, if He is indeed that restraining one, as you suggested I think, are removed when the restraining one is taken out of the way.
It could be that "until the one restraining goes out of the way" ( 2 Thess. 2:7)
This would mean that some believers will have already been raptured before the lawless one is revealed. I ask myself, could that be in harmony with all Paul writes to the Thessalonians.
When Paul speaks of the final gathering of the Harvest he uses under inspiration the phrase - "we who are living, who are left remaining" (1 Thess. 4:15,17) it could indicate some were already raptured.
He says it twice:
"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are living, who are left remaining unto the coming of the Lord, shall by no means precede those who have fallen asleep." (v.15)
"Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will be always with the Lord." (v.17)
If rapture is in installments then the man-child raptured before the three and one half years would render the phrase "we who are living, who are left remaining" completely accurate.
And the removal of firstfruits before the great tribulation would also render "we who are living, who are left remaining" completely accurate.
Originally posted by menace71Manny, let me turn to your comments here.
I first look at 2000 years of Church history ( yes I know these were mere men) but the church did not believe in a pre-trib rapture until the 1800's and also I look to the authority of scriptures and I honestly do not see a pre-trib rapture
But this is merely an appeal to tradition.
The passage about Christ promising to keep some overcomers from the hour of world wide trial did not appear in the New Testament in the 1800s.
How about the light of the Holy Spirit shining upon passages long existing in the Bible to lead the church into the truth at an appropriate time? I am not trying to be flippant or sarcastic. I am soberly serious.
Consider the famous passage John 3:16.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone who believes into Him would not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
Now that verse has always been in the New Testament. But I bet that it became a loud and shining rhema word after centuries of Catholic darkness. I do not know when this became such a prominent evangelical's favorite passage. But I bet in the middle of the Dark Ages it was little used though it was there in the Bible.
Saying a certain passage was not much spoken of until the 1800s is just not good enough a reason to discard it. Neither does it suggest that all and everything said by those pointing it out must be taken without care. We do add mistakes. We often are not able to bear too much light and truth and need to apprehend with all saints the full truth.
.....I do see the 144,000 being set apart as first fruit but as I said we see in the book of Revelation those who are said to have come out of the great tribulation .....John asked who are these ? But the time was not yet over as these souls are seen under the alter of God crying out for God to bring about justice !! Also Jesus says stand until the end to earn the crown of life of course with His Grace through all things
Did you ever consider this?
The souls seen crying out to God for His vengeance upon the evil doers who killed them do so in chapter 6:9-11 in the fifth seal. Underneath the altar represents underneath the earth in Paradise. They were martyred and await resurrection and transfiguration under the earth in paradise.
They were overcoming and victorious witnesses for Jesus from the new covenant age. They may also include overcoming witnesses for God in the old covenant age. They are overcomers.
These are the same ones raptured in the man-child which immediately preceeds the thousand two hundred and sixty days of persecution of the woman in Revelation 12.
The Recovery Version's not on the woman brought forth reads.
Brought forth here signifies resurrection, as in Acts 13:33-34. The man-child is composed of the overcoming saints who have died and been resurrected. This is proved by the words "unto death" in v. 11.
The woman was with child - a man-child:
In the Bible, woman signifies the weaker one and man the stronger one (1 Pet. 3:7). Hence, the man-child here signifies the stronger part of God's people. That the man-child is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod indicates that they man-child consists of the overcomers, as mentioned in 2:26-27.
The child here, being a man-child (v.5), signifies the stronger part of God's people. Throughout all generations there are some stronger ones among God's people. These are considered in the Bible a collective unit fighting the battle for God and bringing God's kingdom down to earth.
As for the travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth
Travailing in birth and being in pain to deliver signifies that throughout all generations God's people have been suffering the travail of delivery (Isa. 26:17-18; Jer. 6:24; 13:21; 30:6; Micah 4:9; 5:3; Gal. 4:19) to bring forth the man-child that he may fight for God's kingdom.
