Forbidden fruit

Originally posted by sonship
The Forbidden Fruit.

Tim88 means the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which Adam was told not to eat. If he did eat of it he would die.

I do not know what tim88 means by Eve's peach.

But for a serious discussion on the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, I am up for that.

And I do not think I understand everything abo ...[text shortened]... the eating of the tree cause death in man ?

Some of these questions maybe we can explore.

Couplea things...

• The other trees were also important: they sustained daily life.
• It was the Tree of Lives, not the Tree of Life (so translated).
• The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represented a system of thinking which was not employed at the time of the recreation, and was expressly forbidden since it would disconnect them from the Source of lives, namely, God.

That's all for now, but I'm sure we can flesh out some more if we wanted to...

Originally posted by sonhouse
Since your alleged god is omniscient, why would it set out a trap that it knew would cause Eve to eat the fruit?

It knew in advance what it was doing and so just used Eve as an excuse because humans in general were becoming a pain in the ass to this god.

Don't blame Eve, it was a set up.

Do you generally view women as a pain in the ass or is that just for Eve?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Couplea things...

• The other trees were also important: they sustained daily life.
• It was the Tree of Lives, not the Tree of Life (so translated).
• The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represented a system of thinking which was not employed at the time of the recreation, and was expressly forbidden since it would disconnect them from the Sou ...[text shortened]... , namely, God.

That's all for now, but I'm sure we can flesh out some more if we wanted to...

Couplea things...

Fellowship.

• The other trees were also important: they sustained daily life.

Sure, all the trees were for man's blessing and benefit.

• It was the Tree of Lives, not the Tree of Life (so translated).

This I am a bit skeptical of. My first reaction is that you are perhaps confusing it with the literal Hebrew on the breath of lives [plural] from chapter two.

But I am opened to examining the Hebrew. I have never heard of this rendering "the tree of LIVES"[/b]

Skeptical on that here, Freaky.

• The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represented a system of thinking which was not employed at the time of the recreation, and was expressly forbidden since it would disconnect them from the Source of lives, namely, God.

Do you think that at any time prior to the fall of Adam, that he and his wife partook of the tree of life ?

If you think so, I have some questions on that for you.

That's all for now, but I'm sure we can flesh out some more if we wanted to...

Sure. Let's discuss it.

But the matter of the tree of life really requires the whole rest of the Bible. We cannot get the meaning just be looking at Genesis. But it signifies the life of God imparted into man. It is surely related to being regenerated or the New Testament "born anew".

I think I might be able to prove that this tree of life is of ONE divine life - God Himself.

Originally posted by sonhouse

Since your alleged god is omniscient, why would it set out a trap that it knew would cause Eve to eat the fruit?

Since God commanded them NOT to eat of the tree, we have to ascertain that their disobedience was the cause of their problem.

Had God placed the tree there and NOT SAID ANYTHING, then you might have more of a case. As it stands God commanded the man and the woman NOT to eat of it.

It knew in advance what it was doing and so just used Eve as an excuse because humans in general were becoming a pain in the ass to this god.

The paradox between God's foreknowledge and man's free will is too difficult for me to comprehend or explain. I can refer you to some people who try.

The presupposition of this complaint is that because God KNEW what was going to happen therefore it HAD to happen or that man was not free.

Personally, I have never been strongly convinced of that argument. But it is a deep one. And whatever the answer I have no thought whatsoever to USE it as an excuse not to love the Lord Jesus Christ and God and receive salvation's offer.

If anyone wants to prepare for the last judgment by arranging carefully thought out excuses about the omniscience of God, what He knew and all that - good luck.

Don't blame Eve, it was a set up.

It may be called a set up. But it was a "set up" with an explicit command not to be drawn into disobedience.

As a matter of fact the Bible seems to place upon the man Adam the weightier responsibility.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Do you generally view women as a pain in the ass or is that just for Eve?

What has that got to do with the idea that an omniscient god would have known the results of such an experiment and therefore didn't have to do the experiment in the first place.

It thus just used the Eve thing as an excuse to de-contaminate its garden.

But people have used this ridiculous story to put down women ever since.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
My question: Why did god put the damn tree there in
the first place when he knows what will happen???

your answer: Free will

Was god demonstrating to Man that he had free will?

I don't see the relevance.

He was giving man free will.

Originally posted by yoctobyte
He was giving man free will.

He can give Man free will without setting him a challenge that He knows Man will fail.

My question:
Why did god do that?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]Couplea things...

• It was the Tree of Lives, not the Tree of Life (so translated).

I can find no English version reading "tree of LIVES [plural]" Freaky.
Where do you get that translation ?

New International Version
In the middle of the garden were the tree of life ...

New Living Translation
In the middle of the garden he placed the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

English Standard Version
The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, ...

New American Standard Bible
... the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, ..

King James Bible
the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, ...

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The LORD God caused to grow out of the ground ... every tree ... including the tree of life in the middle of the garden, ...

International Standard Version
The tree of life was also in the middle of the garden, ...

NET Bible
(Now the tree of life and the tree ...}

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil grew in the middle of the garden.

Jubilee Bible 2000
... the tree of life also in the midst of the garden and ...

King James 2000 Bible
... the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, ...

American King James Version
... the tree of life also in the middle of the garden, ...

American Standard Version
... the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, ...

Douay-Rheims Bible
... the tree of life also in the midst ...

Darby Bible Translation
... and the tree of life, in the midst of the garden, ...

English Revised Version
... the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, ...

Webster's Bible Translation
... the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, ...

World English Bible
...and good for food; the tree of life also in the middle ...

Young's Literal Translation
... and the tree of life in the midst of the garden, ...

I did notice one commentary which said

This, accordingly, disposes of the idea that the tree of life (literally, the tree of the lives: cf. ξύλον τῆς ζωῆς, Revelation 2:7; 20:19) is simply a Hebraism for a living tree,

A crucial part of God fulfilling His eternal purpose is to dispense His divine life into man. So God placed the created man before the tree of life , which stands for the Triune God embodied in Christ as God's life to be imparted into man.

The tree of life in the form of food signifies the Triune God is to be taken INTO man in order to constitute man with God's life and nature but not God's Godhead. God remains the Source of this eternal life.

God's placing man in front of the tree of life indicates that God wanted man to receive Him as man's life - ie. God's life compounding with man and man assimilating God into him. This is a kind of "metabolic" or "organic" mingling of God with man - God's life into man's life - the Uncreated being incorporated with the created.

God wants to be the very constituent of man's being. According to John 1:1,4 life is in the Word, who is God Himself.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... In Him [the Word equaling God] was life ..."

This divine and uncreated life is Christ (John 11:25; 14:6; Col. 3:4a).
Christ is the embodiment of God (Col. 2:9). The tree of life grows along the two sides of the river of water of life (Rev. 22:1-2) This also indicates that the tree of life is seen as a vine tree. The tree of life is therefore a vine for it grows along the river of life on either side and all along the course of the river.

Since Jesus Christ is the "true vine" in John 15:1 and is also life, He is the tree of life. He was processed through incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection that man might have life and live by eating Him (John 10:10b; 6:51, 57, 63) .

Originally posted by wolfgang59
He can give Man free will without setting him a challenge that He knows Man will fail.

My question:
Why did god do that?

He can give Man free will without setting him a challenge that He knows Man will fail.

Can he? I think to have the ability to choose life or death requires a full free will to do so. God knew what the outcome would be, but it was more about A&E, the plan of redemption, the end of satan and evil.

Originally posted by yoctobyte
He was giving man free will.

But he didn't allow us to use our free will. Not according to the bible.

If my boss says: "You can do 'this' or 'that'. What do you choose to do?". This means that I can use my free will to do just 'this' or 'that'. But if I do 'that' instead of this I find myself on the street, from now on without a job. Yes, I used my free will, and got instantly punished. What kind of free will was that?

Answer: It had no free will. I had to chose what was my boss' will and do just his will.

The same thing with the Eden fable. Eve was given free will, but got punished instantly when she choosed 'wrong'. To me it wasn't free will.

And the punishment of Eve's sin was for ever after. Everyone is a sinner, because of that. Even Jesus himself was a sinner because of that. Whenever someone gets cancer then it is the punishment of Eve's act, according to certain christians.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
But he didn't allow us to use our free will. Not according to the bible.

If my boss says: "You can do 'this' or 'that'. What do you choose to do?". This means that I can use my free will to do just 'this' or 'that'. But if I do 'that' instead of this I find myself on the street, from now on without a job. Yes, I used my free will, and got instantly pun ...[text shortened]... ver someone gets cancer then it is the punishment of Eve's act, according to certain christians.

Yes, I used my free will, and got instantly punished. What kind of free will was that

Why is that not free will, you should maybe reconsider what the definition of 'free will' is. The consequences are laid out, 'if you do this thing that thing will happen', you choose, it's your free will. It's all about choices, it's free will to choose in spite of what a consequence may be for making the decision. If you do not want to lose your job, don't do the think that will get you fired. Hope this helps.

Originally posted by yoctobyte

Yes, I used my free will, and got instantly punished. What kind of free will was that

Why is that not free will, you should maybe reconsider what the definition of 'free will' is. The consequences are laid out, 'if you do this thing that thing will happen', you choose, it's your free will. It's all about choices, it's free will to choos ...[text shortened]... you do not want to lose your job, don't do the think that will get you fired. Hope this helps.

Then it seems that the expression "free will" is watered out.

What Eve did of free will gave every woman from then and onward, even women of this time, give birth in pain. Did Eve know this? Did she have all information about her free will? I doubt it.

(...assuming we take the legend seriously.)

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Then it seems that the expression "free will" is watered out.

What Eve did of free will gave every woman from then and onward, even women of this time, give birth in pain. Did Eve know this? Did she have all information about her free will? I doubt it.

(...assuming we take the legend seriously.)

Did she have all information about her free will? I doubt it.

In Genesis we find...

Genesis 2:17
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." (Genesis 2:17 NASB)

Seems pretty straight forward, aside from surely die what would you have added to assure 'total disclosure' before making a decision and exercising your free will?

Originally posted by yoctobyte
[quote]Genesis 2:17
... but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." (Genesis 2:17 NASB)

Seems pretty straight forward, aside from surely die what would you have added to assure 'total disclosure' before making a decision and exercising your free will?

Of course it is straight forward. Tell me anything that doesn't die? Every innocent microbe dies.

Do you say that if Eve hadn't eaten of the fruit, noone would die? Ever? In eternity? Don't you think this is hard to believe?