Garden of Eden

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you know Jay, i am not going to even argue with you, God also said of King David, your Kingship will be indefinite,

(2 Samuel 7:15-16) . . .As for my loving-kindness, it will not depart from him the way I removed it from Saul, whom I removed on account of you.  And your house and your kingdom will certainly be steadfast to time indefinite before ...[text shortened]... he book of revelation, and no amount of postulating on the divinity of Christ can mar that fact!

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you know Jay, i am not going to even argue with you, God also said of King David, your Kingship will be indefinite,

(2 Samuel 7:15-16) . . .As for my loving-kindness, it will not depart from him the way I removed it from Saul, whom I removed on account of you. And your house and your kingdom will certainly be steadfast to time indefinite before you; your very throne will become one firmly established to time indefinite.”’”
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Notice that Jehovah God also says in the same chapter "And I will appoint a place for My people Israel and will plant them [there], that they may dwell in their own place and be disturbed no more; and the sons of wickedness will ill-treat them no more as before." (v. 10)

We should understand this promise as conditional about thier doing the will of God. That is the only way we can ascertain what something like the Babylonian Captivity meant after this promise was made.

They certainly were "disturbed" by Nebuchadnessor after the time of Second Samuel. And they certainly were "ill-treated" by wicked enemies after this promise. So we have to consider the promise as conditional upon Israel's obedience.

In the same way we have to consider God's promise to David to be conditioned on David's and Solomon, his son's obedience.

" I will raise up your seed after you, which will come forth from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. It is he who will build a house for My name, and I will establish the thone of his kingdom forever."

Now let us go over and see what God actually told Solomon, David's seed.

"And Jehovah said to Solomon, Because you have done this and have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I commanded you, I will SURELY tear the kingdom away from you and give it to your servant." ( 1 Kings 11:11)

The following verses show that God promises to reserve some remnant of David's prosterity. But as you can see, Solomon's idolatry caused him some disqualification.

Now, when Jesus came He said quite rightly "Something more then Solomon is here." (Luke 11:31) So God can discipline Solomon, abrigate some of His promises to Solomon because of the disqualification of his idolatry. Yet God can also continue the promise through a descendent of David, (namely the Messiah and Son of God) who WAS 1000% obedient to the Father.

" ... because she [the queen of Sheba] came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something more than Solomon is here."

God's promise to David's seed did not lock Jehovah in in a foolish way in which Solomon's idolatry could not effect the promise. God can change His mind without changing His will.

Once again, We have God telling Solomon that the wonderful things said concerning him even back to David his father's time, are conditioned upon Solomon's obedience:

"And I also give you [Solomon] that for which you did not ask, both riches and glory, so that there will be no one among kings like you all your days.

And *IF* you walk in My ways, keeping My statutes and My commandments, as Davd your father walked, I will extend your days." (1 Kings 3:14)

Did Solomon keep the ways of Jehovah God that God might extend his days and continue his throne ?

"And when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart after other gods; and his heart was not perfect toward Jehovah his God like the heart of David his father. And Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable thing of the Ammonites.

And Solomon did what was evil in the sight of Jehovah and did not fully follow Jehovah as David his father [had done].

Then Solomon built a high place to Chemosh the detestable thing of Moab ... and to Molech the detestable thing of the children of Ammon. And so he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and offered sacrifices to their gods.

So Jehovah became angry with Solomon because his heart turned away from Jehovah the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice." (1 Kings 11:4-10)

Because Solomon went after other gods "he did not keep that which Jehovah had commanded" (v.10)

So chastizement was upon Solomon and his kingly throne. The passage you use therefore cannot demonstrate that as God spoke of His Son Jesus Christ, so also He spoke and acted with Solomon.

Christ fulfilled what Solomon failed.

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does that make David God incarnate, hardly, well just stop the postulating Jay, just stop it!

You have once again diverted the issue, in this case the temple arrangement and made it one of an entirely different nature. untill you can explain the significance of the holy of holies, the high priest, the Levitical priesthood, the court of gentiles etc, you cannot claim to have any understanding of the heavenly arrangement of which it foreshadowed nor of the book of revelation, and no amount of postulating on the divinity of Christ can mar that fact!
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Every true Christian understands the divinity of Jesus Christ. There is no need to plunge into the temple matters, as interesting as they are.

Christ is the greater David, the greater Solomon. Where all who came before Him came short, He was the beloved Son with Whom the Father was well pleased at last. He loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. And He is addressed as God in Hebrews 1:8, being God incarnate as a man.

Originally posted by jaywill
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you know Jay, i am not going to even argue with you, God also said of King David, your Kingship will be indefinite,

(2 Samuel 7:15-16) . . .As for my loving-kindness, it will not depart from him the way I removed it from Saul, whom I removed on account of you. And your house and your kingdom will certa ssed as God in Hebrews 1:8, being God incarnate as a man.

We should understand this promise as conditional about their doing the will of God. - Jaywill

No this could not have been the case with David, in fact evidence points to the contrary, for Jehovah let David live, not on the basis of his conduct which was reprehensible even though he did repent, but on the basis of his own promise or agreement to David that his Kingship would last to time indefinite. Solomon conduct did not negate this promise, nor did the subsequent infidelity of the Judean Kings who came afterwards. When God makes a promise, he keeps it. Your attempt therefore to state that Christ is God incarnate because God promised that his Kingship would be to time indefinite, the very same promise that he made to David, an imperfect and sinful human, proves nothing other than that God keeps his promises. Its in my opinion a truly weak argument.

No not all Christians are willing to ignore the plethora of scriptural evidence which clearly shows that Christ is subject to God in every way and not once does he presume to make himself equal to the father and desire the worship which belongs exclusively to the father, which incidentally is what Satan tried to do. You may want to think about that.

what this has got to do with understanding Revelation by looking at the temple elements, really evades me at present.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
We should understand this promise as conditional about their doing the will of God. - Jaywill

No this could not have been the case with David, in fact evidence points to the contrary, for Jehovah let David live, not on the basis of his conduct which was reprehensible even though he did repent, but on the basis of his own promise or agreement to Da ...[text shortened]... do with understanding Revelation by looking at the temple elements, really evades me at present.

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When God makes a promise, he keeps it. Your attempt therefore to state that Christ is God incarnate because God promised that his Kingship would be to time indefinite, the very same promise that he made to David, an imperfect and sinful human, proves nothing other than that God keeps his promises. Its in my opinion a truly weak argument.
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You have a superfiscial concept of what it means to God to reign as a victorios king. Perhaps you think as long as one has a crown on the head he must be a king.

Christ reigned "in life". David and Solomon both, though having done some good things, were defeated in some areas of thier godly life.

Christ reigned thoroughly in life overcoming the world. Which was more of a king, David, Solomon, or Jesus Christ ?

That is why the phrase "something more than Solomon is here". Christ is not the shadow but the reality. Colossians 2:16,17 speaks of many things in the Old Testament which were shadows of Christ the solid reality:

" ... feasts or of a new moon or of the Sabbath, which are a shadow of the things to come, but the body is of Christ"

People also, great people, in thier positive aspects were pointers and symbols, types and shadows of the Son of God. In the Son of God there was NO adultery, NO idolatry, NO human failure of character or obedience to the will of God.

In all their positive aspects these imperfect sinners, like David and Solomon were little previews of the one to come, the incarnation of God - Christ. Now John is even bold to say that "No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom ofthe Father, He has declared God." (John 1:18)

John discounts all the appearances of God to men in the Old Testament - Adam, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel .... The Apostle John now places all of these events of God appearing to man in a catagoy disqualifying them. John says in essence, " No, no, none of these count anymore. The onlybegotten Son has manifested God, has declared God"[/b]

God spoke in times past in many ways. Now the Son Jesus is the declaration of God, The Son defines God. The Son declares God. The Son is the Word who was with God and WAS God became flesh (in incarnation).

"No one has EVER seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." (John 1:17)

This Word who was God (John 1:1) is the very divine life of the Father.

" ... we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life (And the life was with manifested, and we have seen and testify and report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manidfested to us ... That which we have seen and heard we report also to you that you also may have fellowship with us, and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ." (See First John 1:1-3)

John now demotes this appearing of God underneath the manifestation of God in Jesus:

"The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was in Mesopotamia ..." (Acts 7:2) .

Don't think John, a good Jew, didn't know about this. John didn't make a slip or a mistake. Christ's apostle tells us that compared to the Word becomming flesh, that no longer counts. We have to now make that in a kind of second class experience. It is superceded by "The Word ... was God ...And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us ...we beheld ...".

The same is true with God Almighty who appeared to Jacob (Genesis 48:3) - "And Jacob said to Joseph, the Almighty God appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan"

Now the Apostle John, the Son of God's apostle says not to count that. It is transcended by the Word becomming flesh. God became a man in Jesus. The Jehovah's Witnesses are in rebellion against this New Testament revelation in favor of wanting to return to a pseudo Judiastic law keeping defined by their outreach methods.

They should not be called Jehovah Witnesses but Rebels Against Jehovah. You are following antichrist teachers.

Hebrews begins "God, having spoken of old in may portions and in many ways to the fathers in the prophets, has at the last of t hese days spoken to us in the Son ... who being the effulfence of His glory and the impress of His substance " (See Heb 1:1-3)

Your teachers are in rebellion to the New Testament. They have duped millions that somehow we disciples of Jesus have got it in error. On this point of Jesus being God incarnate we do not have it in error, though we are far from all problems.

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No not all Christians are willing to ignore the plethora of scriptural evidence which clearly shows that Christ is subject to God
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The Son being subject to the Father is not being argued against by me. The One of Whom it says "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever" is being spoken to by One to Whom this Godman is in subjection. He has loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. The does not mean that the Word who was with God and was God did not become flesh.

The subjection of the Son to the Father does not make God incarnate as a man impossible.

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in every way and not once does he presume to make himself equal to the father and desire the worship which belongs exclusively to the father, which incidentally is what Satan tried to do. You may want to think about that.
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Christ did not reject but received worship in these instances in the New Testament:

Jesus worshipped:
By a healed leper (Matt. 8:2)
By a ruler whose son Jesus healed (Matt.9:18)
By the disciples after a storm (Matt.14:33)
By a Canaanite woman (Matt.15:25)
By the mother of James and John (Matt.20:20)
By a Gerasene demoniac (Mark 5:6)
By a healed blind man (John 9:38)
By all the disciples (Matt. 28:17)
By Thomass, who said, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28)

You may want to think about that and be believing not unbelieving.

Originally posted by jaywill
Christ did not reject but received worship in these instances in the New Testament:

Jesus worshipped:
By a healed leper [b](Matt. 8:2)
By a ruler whose son Jesus healed (Matt.9:18)
By the disciples after a storm (Matt.14:33)
By a Canaanite woman (Matt.15:25)
By the mother of James and John (Matt.20:20)
By a Ge ...[text shortened]... ciples (Matt. 28:17)
By Thomass, who said, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28)
[/b]

Who says?

And the next posting from me will be:

Hearsay!

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Who says?

And the next posting from me will be:

Hearsay!

Are you also saying the Bible does not teach the incarnation of God as a man in Jesus Christ ?

1. (Matthew 4:10) . . .Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” -

2.(John 14:28) . . .you heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am. . . -

3. (1 Corinthians 15:28) . . .then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

4.(1 Corinthians 3:23) . . .Christ, in turn, belongs to God. . .

5.(Philippians 2:5-6) . . .Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus,  who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

6.(John 20:17) Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

7.(1 Corinthians 11:3) But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.

8. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,”  there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

i shall let the actual words of Christ and the scriptures speak for themselves.

Originally posted by jaywill
Are you also saying the Bible does not teach the incarnation of God as a man in Jesus Christ ?

The bible teaches many things. Some of which is true, some of which is not true.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
1. (Matthew 4:10) . . .Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and [b]it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” -

2.(John 14:28) . . .you heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to ...[text shortened]... through him.

i shall let the actual words of Christ and the scriptures speak for themselves.[/b]

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1. (Matthew 4:10) . . .Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” -
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Christ is not God alone without also being man. So on His position as a man it was reasonable for Him to rebuke Satan in this way.

This proof fails.

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2.(John 14:28) . . .you heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am. . . -
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He was not God and not a man. So on His position as a man in humility and obedience, it is reasonable for Him to speak this way.

This proof also fails.


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3. (1 Corinthians 15:28) . . .then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
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At what time was the Son Himself NOT subject to the Father ?
This passage does not furnish proof that the Word who was God became flesh.

Besides this passage could not mean that "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever" is not true. And this is spoken "as concerning the Son".

First Corinthians 15:28 will not furnish you with any ground to deny that Christ is God incarnate.

The same chapter also says "The last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit" (verse 45) .

And "God is Spirit" (John 4:24). And to the Christians "And in this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He gave to us." (1 John 3:24)

You may not "know" that God dwells in you because you reject Christ, will not receive Him, and want to teach He is an angel and not Deity, not Jehovah become a man.

It is the Spirit that gives life (John 6:63, 2 Cor. 3:6). When this Spirit of God gives us divine life He gives us the divine Person of Jesus. Jesus after incarnation, death, and resurrection "became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45).

God became One who gives divine eternal life to man in the resurrected Christ. And we know He abides in us by the Spirit Whom He has given to us (1 John 4:13).

Join us. Receive Christ as Lord as God as a Man.

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4.(1 Corinthians 3:23) . . .Christ, in turn, belongs to God. . .
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And Zechariah chapter 2 has Jehovah of hosts send Jehovah of hosts.

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5.(Philippians 2:5-6) . . .Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.
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He did not grasp at His rightful status. He emptied Himself of all glorious spendour and became an obedient slave unto crucifixion. WHEREFORE God has exalted His name above every name.

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord (Phil. 2:10)

Interestingly the Old Testament has Jehovah God saying "I have sworn by Myself; A word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness and will not return,

That every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall swear." (Isaiah 43:23)

Look down at your knees robbie. Your knees will bow to Jehovah God and your tongue will swear to Jehovah God on the day you bow to Jesus and confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father (Phil. 2:11). Do so on this side of the last judgment, I suggest.

Jesus is Jehovah.

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6.(John 20:17) Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”
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There is only one God. And the Son of God is addressed as "O God" in Hebrews 1:8.

Now He is "leading many sons into glory" (Heb. 2:10). He is not ashamed to call them brothers (Heb. 2:11).

And His God is their God, His Father, their Father. God became a man and is not ashamed to call those redeemed by Him borthers. He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one (Heb. 2:11)

God became man so that man may become God, in life and nature but not in the Godhead. He is not ashamed to call them brothers for they have been regenerated through the resurrection of Jesus from the dead:

" ... according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Peter 1:3)

This is God dispensing Himself, in the resurrected Christ, as life giving Spirit, into His redeemed people.

Now I cannot at this time respond to the other points. I have to go do something and return at another time.

Originally posted by jaywill
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1. (Matthew 4:10) . . .Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” -
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Christ is not God alone without also being man. So on His position as a man it was reaso to the other points. I have to go do something and return at another time.[/b]

i am not buying any of that Jaywill, its nonsense, the scriptures speak for themselves, that's all i have to say on the matter, if you want to profess something other than what Christ said and taught, then that's your look out, i will stick with the son of God, in whose mouth, there was found to be NO DECEPTION! Peace be upon him and his kingship forever and ever!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i am not buying any of that Jaywill, its nonsense, the scriptures speak for themselves, that's all i have to say on the matter, if you want to profess something other than what Christ said and taught, then that's your look out, i will stick with the son of God, in whose mouth, there was found to be NO DECEPTION! Peace be upon him and his kingship forever and ever!

"Peace be upon him and his kingship forever and ever!"

Sounds like something directly translated from the arabic language. But that was about Mohammed, of course.

For my part I am going to let the posters continue the discussion on the garden of Eden if they wish.

Originally posted by whodey
It seems to me that we all have a longing to return to the garden, a place of tranquility and bliss. You see this as people try to achieve this garden politically, economically etc., but all become abject failures in the end.

However, if you were able, would you return to the garden mentioned in the Bible so that you could commune with God face to face, or do you prefer where you are now?

Both. And I will by the grace of God.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
1. (Matthew 4:10) . . .Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and [b]it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” -

2.(John 14:28) . . .you heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to ...[text shortened]... through him.

i shall let the actual words of Christ and the scriptures speak for themselves.[/b]

"The Father and I are One. He who has seen Me has seen the Father"

Game. Set. Match.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
"The Father and I are One. He who has seen Me has seen the Father"

Game. Set. Match.

i see so Jesus never regarded himself as being equal to God

(Philippians 2:5-6) . . .Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

yet here you are ignoring the biblical account and making him equal to God, hardly Christian, is it. Do you do that with a lot of scriptures, ignore them because they teach things contrary to your dogma?

Secondly as you trinitarians always fail to point out, in the very same passage, it states that just as Jesus and God are one, so the disciples should be one as well, does that mean that they are also God, no, well stop postulating anti biblical and anti Christian dogma. Its entirely typical of nominal Christians to take a verse out of context and to try to subject it to their ancient paganism, so seeing that you have ignored the context, ill help you out,

(John 17:20-21) . . .“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, . . .

so Jesus and his father are one and it appears so are the disciples, does that make them God? Hardly!

also

(John 6:45-46) . . .Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me. Not that any man has seen the Father. . .

(John 1:18) . . .No man has seen God at any time

Strange statements those considering many people saw Jesus making you're claim that he is God, anti Christian and anti biblical. Yes indeed,

thats mate i believe, robbie 1: anti Christians 0

until you can address in a satisfactory manner any one of the scriptures that i cited, instead of doing what all born again happy clappy Christians do, that is ignore the biblical evidence, your on to a hiding to nothing!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i see so Jesus never regarded himself as being equal to God

(Philippians 2:5-6) . . .Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, [b]gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

yet here you are ignoring the biblical account and making him equa ppy clappy Christians do, that is ignore the biblical evidence, your on to a hiding to nothing![/b]

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i see so Jesus never regarded himself as being equal to God

(Philippians 2:5-6) . . .Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

yet here you are ignoring the biblical account and making him equal to God, hardly Christian, is it. Do you do that with a lot of scriptures, ignore them because they teach things contrary to your dogma?
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You are not understanding Philippians 2:5-6 at all. And that paraphrase "translation" doesn't help.

Philippians 2:5-6 does not teach that Christ was not God. It teaches that Christ did not account being equal to God a thing to be grasped. In other words He humbled Himself in His incarnation.

The Recovery Version translation, I think, is much better;

"Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God a treasure to be grasped."

It does NOT say that Christ was not in the form of God or equal with God. It says that though He was in the form of God and equal with God He did not consider that "a treasure to be grasped".

Do you see the difference ?

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Secondly as you trinitarians always fail to point out, in the very same passage, it states that just as Jesus and God are one, so the disciples should be one as well, does that mean that they are also God,
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Eventually, yes, the disciples become God as well, but not in His Godhead.

The disciples are "the Body of Christ". But Christ remains the HEAD of the Body. So the Body of Christ, Who is Godman, are the sons of God. The Head of the Body of Christ remains Christ.

So Athanasius was right to say "God became man so that man might become God". Man in full salvation becomes God in life and in nature but not in His Godhead as an object of worship.

That is another subject. However, that Christ humbled Himself and obeyed the Father does not mean that He is not God become a man.

And in Zachariah chapter 2, Jehovah of hosts is both the Sender and the One sent. Being the One sent does not make that sent one NOT Jehovah.

Furthermore, in many New Testament passages, though Christ humbled Himself, not considering the treasure of Him being God, He nothintheless often spoke as God.

Here is one example:

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and your would not!" (Matthew 23:37)

It was always God Himself who cared for Jerusalem, as a bird fluttering over her young (Isa. 31:5; Deut. 32:11,12). When the Lord Jesus said "How often I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings," He was indicating that He was Jehovah God of the Old Testament become a man.

So though He did not proudly grasp at His equality with God, He sometimes spoke in a manner revealing that He was God.

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no, well stop postulating anti biblical and anti Christian dogma. Its entirely typical of nominal Christians to take a verse out of context and to try to subject it to their ancient paganism, so seeing that you have ignored the context, ill help you out,
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The antichrist dogma that you push from the kingdom hall is that Christ is the angel Michael and not the Word Who was God and became flesh. (John 1:1,14)

The writer of Hebrews writes, "For to which of the angels has He ever said, "You are My Son; this day have I begotten You"?" (Heb 1:3)

The heretical Watchtower teachers reply - "To which angel ?? To Michael. That's which angel."

You teach that the Son of God is Michael the angel. This is the antichrist dogma that you believe and teach. You should repent of this antichrist dogma from Charles Russell.

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(John 17:20-21) . . .“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, . . .
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That is right. So Athanasius, during the debates on Christology, was right to say "God became man, so that man might become God".

He did not mean, nor do I mean, that the redeemed will ever become objects of worship, or omniscient, or omnipresent, or omnipotent, or Creators of universes.

But to become sons of God in eternity will be to be where He is. And having "God's seed" as is plainly said in (1 John 3:9). Having God's seed in them through regeneration makes them God's kind. It does not make them the Father or the Godhead. But it makes them God's "species" - God's family, God's kin in the family of God.

This is why the New Jerusalem eventually matches Christ, Who is God become man, as His counterpart, other, Wife. "We shall be like Him, for we shall see Him even as He is." (1 John 3:2)

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so Jesus and his father are one and it appears so are the disciples, does that make them God? Hardly!
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Yes it does, but not in His Godhead. Christ is God by way of incarnation and resurrection. The redeemed become God in life and nature and expression by way of full salvation.

First Peter says that the believers in Christ are "partakers of the divine nature" (1 Peter 1:4)

That was not WORSHIPPERS only "of the divine nature".
That was not SPECTATORS only "of the divine nature" .
That was not ADMIRERS only "of the divine nature" .
That was not PROSTRATORS only to "the divine nature".
That was not SUBJECTS only to "the divine nature".
That was not CITIZENS only under "the divine nature".
That was not SERVANTS only "to the divine nature".
That was not OBSERVERS only "of the divine nature".

The word of God said the believers are "PARTAKERS" (PARTICIPANTS) "of the divine nature".

You like the Moslems, or Jews, or even degraded Christianity, only see a purely outward and objective relationship to God. You do not believe an "organic" union of God and man.

You do not see it in Christ's incarnation and resurrection. And you do not see it in God's full salvation.

You are psuedo Moslems with a God OUT THERE, and not the God Who comes to dwell within His redeemed people, implanting His seed (1 John 3:9) or His "divine nature" (1 Pet. 1:4) into sons in life.

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(John 6:45-46) . . .Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me. Not that any man has seen the Father. . .

(John 1:18) . . .No man has seen God at any time

Strange statements those considering many people saw Jesus making you're claim that he is God, anti Christian and anti biblical. Yes indeed,
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You curiously failed to quote the rest of the passage of John 1:18) . John wrote "No one has ever seen God, the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." (John 1:18)

This goes back to Christ humbling Himself. In His humility as a man He uttered John 6:45,46)

But are you saying that the Apostle John LIED ? Are you saying that your Watchtower teachers know better the essence of the Gospel then the Apostle John ?

John wrote "No one has ever seen God, the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." (John 1:18)

I intend to believe Jesus and His faithful apostle/s.

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thats mate i believe, robbie 1: anti Christians 0
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That's the word of God 1: Satan and Jehovah's Witnesses negative 1000 !