Originally posted by josephw
ToO says one must stop sinning to be saved. So I asked him if he had stopped sinning.
I'm still waiting for an answer.
Joseph, you ask a fair question. You will probably not get an answer. But for the sake of discussion I would like to reply.
Here is a solid example of a person who is saved but is excluded temporarily from entering the kingdom of the heavens because of failing to overcome some sinful conduct.
The larger context would be the teaching of Jesus in parable of the unforgiving servant in
Matthew 18:21-35. I will only quote the climax when the master, representing Christ, calls the unforgiving servant to him:
"Then his master called him to him and said to him, Evil slave, all that debt I forgave you, because you begged me. Should you not also have had mercyon your fellow slave even as I had mercy on you?
And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed. So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts." (Matt.18:32-35)
1.) The slave being dealt with is a saved person because Christ, represented by the master, had forgiven him all of his debt.
2.) The slave is being dealt with after the second coming of Christ because it says the master called the slave to him.
3.) Because the slave did not overcome unforgiveness, he is not rewarded as other slaves in the manner of other parables about the kingdom of the heavens.
4.) Not only is he not rewarded but he is punished with something unpleasant. He is turned over to the torturers.
5.) His handling by the torturers is not eternal but has a limit upon it -
"UNTIL he should repay all that was owed."
6.) He is excluded from the reward stage of the kingdom of the heavens. But such exclusion is temporary.
7.) The Lord Jesus says His Father will do likewise to any disciple of Jesus who does not learn the lesson of forgiving his fellow slaves from his heart, remembering that he was forgiven of his own sins.
8.) This teaching is equivalent to Jesus, after His second coming, telling some saved servants of His, that they will not enjoy the reward of the kingdom of the heavens. And that regardless of the fact that they acknowledged Him as Lord -
"Lord, Lord" they had called sometime.
9.) When the
"until" time is reached, the slave is released from his discipline. Therefore such temprary punishment does not mean the loss of eternal redemption or eternal life.
The nine points about would be confirmed by Paul's warning to Corinthians Christians:
"The work of each will be manifested for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is.
If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.
If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:13-15)
The unforgiving slave is an example of a saved person whose Christian service is exposed in the examination of the Lord Jesus. His failure to built the church with the forgiveness of Christ causes him to suffer loss. Yet he himself is saved after some period of dicipline. So he is saved
"yet so as through fire".
I have no interest to convince ToO of the soundness of this understanding. But, please, if you see a problem in any of this logic, point it out to me and we can discuss it further.