1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    19 Feb '10 20:56
    PS - The reason for starting this thread is to try and call him out and offer him a mirror to his own behaviour. He's very fond of starting threads of his own designed to challenge the behaviour of Christians and Christianity - so it's only fair that he gets challenged himself.

    This of course needs to be done fairly. I'm not being abusive or unreasonable. Nobody wants him off the forum. Afterall that would be a disaster for free speech and healthy debate. All that anyone can ask is for plain answers to plain questions and reciprocal fairness and respect.
  2. Account suspended
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    19 Feb '10 21:38
    Originally posted by whodey
    Well ya know its like TOO once told me, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer ya know.
    Lol, aha ha ha ha, spoken like a true Paulian. Why don't you just admit that Paul is your Lord?
  3. Joined
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    19 Feb '10 23:57
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Which particular aspect of my burgeoning psychiatric condition needs addressing most do you think ?

    My insistence on robustly defending my own faith perhaps?

    Or my request for reasonable answers to plain questions?

    Interestingly , you seem concerned for my well being because I started this thread but don't bat an eyelid at ToOne's constant ...[text shortened]... our compassion was a bit more universal and evenly spread I would feel a bit more touched.
    Which particular aspect of my burgeoning psychiatric condition needs addressing most do you think ?

    The aspect that continues to compel you in your stalking. It's the same aspect that has pulled your strings for 2-3 years now.

    My insistence on robustly defending my own faith perhaps?

    Or my request for reasonable answers to plain questions?


    These are related to rationalization attitudes that attend your stalking. Of course you think commandeering thread after thread over the years (as well as conceiving of pointless new ones) for the purpose of personal inquisition somehow constitutes robust defense of your faith and reasonable inquiry. That's part of your delusion.

    Interestingly , you seem concerned for my well being because I started this thread but don't bat an eyelid at ToOne's constant pursuit of Christians and Christianity.

    No, I'm not concerned for your well-being merely because you started this thread. I am concerned for your well-being on the basis of observations made over the last 2-3 years concerning the object of your pursuits. You were a valuable forum contributor who seemed to have noble intellectual concerns and priorities before the tailspin. Honestly, within the exchanges that have played out, I am far less concerned about ToO's psychological well-being than yours. After all, you're the one who keeps stalking him; and he just keeps telling you in response that he thinks you are a liar and a fraud and a disingenuous person. The point being, the vicious cycle here really lies within your psychology. Regardless of what I think of ToO's viewpoint per se, he seems to have intellectual pursuits here and your personal exchanges are really relegated to the edge of his primary interest set; whereas, on the contrary, you seem to have no more intellectual pursuit here, as your project end is simply in your exchanges with ToO for personal inquisition. Given this, does it still seem strange that I am much more concerned with you than him? I am concerned principally by the degradation of your priorities as I understand them.

    This will be the last commentary I give on this subject. You can, of course, take it or leave it.
  4. Joined
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    20 Feb '10 13:181 edit
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    [b]Which particular aspect of my burgeoning psychiatric condition needs addressing most do you think ?

    The aspect that continues to compel you in your stalking. It's the same aspect that has pulled your strings for 2-3 years now.

    My insistence on robustly defending my own faith perhaps?

    Or my request for reasonable answers to plain ques be the last commentary I give on this subject. You can, of course, take it or leave it.
    =======================================
    I am concerned for your well-being on the basis of observations made over the last 2-3 years concerning the object of your pursuits. You were a valuable forum contributor who seemed to have noble intellectual concerns and priorities before the tailspin.
    =========================================
    [/b]

    And maybe these are just your big touching crocodile tears.
  5. Account suspended
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    20 Feb '10 14:091 edit
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    [b]Which particular aspect of my burgeoning psychiatric condition needs addressing most do you think ?

    The aspect that continues to compel you in your stalking. It's the same aspect that has pulled your strings for 2-3 years now.

    [b]My insistence on robustly defending my own faith perhaps?

    Or my request for reasonable answers to plain ques be the last commentary I give on this subject. You can, of course, take it or leave it.
    (John 6:60) “This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?. . .
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    20 Feb '10 19:13
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Lol, aha ha ha ha, spoken like a true Paulian. Why don't you just admit that Paul is your Lord?
    That was not the question. The question was am I turning into TOO? Please follow along.
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    20 Feb '10 19:301 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    ToO says one must stop sinning to be saved. So I asked him if he had stopped sinning.

    I'm still waiting for an answer.
    IIRC what I did was point out that Jesus taught that you cannot continue to sin and enter the "Kingdom of Heaven".

    Matthew 7:21-23
    Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven....Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

    For whatever reason, many Christians ask me if I have stopped sinning as if it may make a difference as to what Jesus taught. The question is irrelevant. What Jesus taught is not in any way dependent on whether or not I sin. That so many of you seem to have such trouble wrapping your minds around this fact is quite telling.
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    20 Feb '10 19:414 edits
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    So you've decided to fall for the propaganda then , rather than think for yourself and let the facts speak for themselves.

    The one thing I don't want is for this thread to turn into a "have a go at ToOne" thread. It's more important that it's reflected back to him how obtuse he is and how he's getting nowhere with anyone because...

    a) he won't ant to "take sides" and subscribe to cheap hollywood cliches then that's up to you.
    The one thing I don't want is for this thread to turn into a "have a go at ToOne" thread.

    Yet you started the thread by having a go at me. Just reread your original post. Not much chance of it TURNING INTO a "have a go at ToOne" thread, since that's how it started. How disingenuous can someone get? And like usual your original post contains one lie after another.

    Make no mistake, I point out that you deceive, distort, lie, etc. simply because that's exactly what you do.

    All anyone need do, is look at your posting history to know that a high percentage of your posts are about "having a go" at me. That you try to pretend otherwise is dishonest. But then, what else is new?

    BTW, LJ does seem to be genuinely concerned about your well-being. You should seriously consider what he's telling you. It's unfortunate that there don't seem to be any Christians on this forum who are likewise concerned about your well-being. Or maybe there are some who are afraid of speaking the truth to you?
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    20 Feb '10 22:08
    Originally posted by whodey
    That was not the question. The question was am I turning into TOO? Please follow along.
    Did you even read my post? Go back through the thread and read it again!
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    20 Feb '10 22:192 edits
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    [b]The one thing I don't want is for this thread to turn into a "have a go at ToOne" thread.

    Yet you started the thread by having a go at me. Just reread your original post. Not much chance of it TURNING INTO a "have a go at ToOne" thread, since that's how it started. How disingenuous can someone get? And like usual your original post contains one our well-being. Or maybe there are some who are afraid of speaking the truth to you?[/b]
    i like knightmeister, his posts are well intentioned and the reasoning excellent and even if i do not agree with his points, at least they are based on reason. I can also understand his frustration, what else are we to do in cases of such stubbornness and a refusal to reach even a compromise or some kind of mutual understanding but appeal to the forum itself as if it were Caesar of old and a last resort. I think it is a good idea, 'i appeal to the forum', whence the point at hand may be judged by ones peers!
  11. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    The Axe man
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    20 Feb '10 23:00
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    [b]The one thing I don't want is for this thread to turn into a "have a go at ToOne" thread.

    Yet you started the thread by having a go at me. Just reread your original post. Not much chance of it TURNING INTO a "have a go at ToOne" thread, since that's how it started. How disingenuous can someone get? And like usual your original post contains one ...[text shortened]... our well-being. Or maybe there are some who are afraid of speaking the truth to you?[/b]
    Don't hide behind LemonJello-if you reckon you don't need to🙂
  12. Standard memberknightmeister
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    20 Feb '10 23:13
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    IIRC what I did was point out that Jesus taught that you cannot continue to sin and enter the "Kingdom of Heaven".

    Matthew 7:21-23
    Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven....Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

    For whatever reason, many Christians ...[text shortened]... any of you seem to have such trouble wrapping your minds around this fact is quite telling.
    For whatever reason, many Christians ask me if I have stopped sinning as if it may make a difference as to what Jesus taught. The question is irrelevant. What Jesus taught is not in any way dependent on whether or not I sin. That so many of you seem to have such trouble wrapping your minds around this fact is quite telling.
    ------ToOne------------

    The question may be irrelevant to you now , but if you answered it and pursued a line of reasoning after that you might find out that it's a bit more relevant than you thought it was.

    It's relevant to others , and that's the whole point. You are on a forum , not some isolated blog of your own.

    The reason why it's relevant to me is because having an experiential knowledge of something is important. If you really know what you are talking about then one would assume that you have mastered the art of not sinning . If you have not then it's only logical to question the authority of your interpretation of Jesus's teachings.

    Nowhere does Jesus explicitly state that unless someone is 100% without sin then they cannot enter heaven. However , because you are incapable of seeing your interpretations as anything other than self evident facts, it's impossible to debate with you.

    Take Matt 7:21-23 for example - "Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven....Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

    there are other ways of looking at thtis passage , but because you have already decided that there is only ONE possible interpretation you are not open to other ideas.

    You treat your own perceptions as if they are cast iron facts , without appreciating that we all perceive reality from a certain perspective.
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    20 Feb '10 23:153 edits
    Originally posted by josephw
    ToO says one must stop sinning to be saved. So I asked him if he had stopped sinning.

    I'm still waiting for an answer.
    Joseph, you ask a fair question. You will probably not get an answer. But for the sake of discussion I would like to reply.

    Here is a solid example of a person who is saved but is excluded temporarily from entering the kingdom of the heavens because of failing to overcome some sinful conduct.

    The larger context would be the teaching of Jesus in parable of the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18:21-35. I will only quote the climax when the master, representing Christ, calls the unforgiving servant to him:

    "Then his master called him to him and said to him, Evil slave, all that debt I forgave you, because you begged me. Should you not also have had mercyon your fellow slave even as I had mercy on you?

    And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed. So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts." (Matt.18:32-35)


    1.) The slave being dealt with is a saved person because Christ, represented by the master, had forgiven him all of his debt.

    2.) The slave is being dealt with after the second coming of Christ because it says the master called the slave to him.

    3.) Because the slave did not overcome unforgiveness, he is not rewarded as other slaves in the manner of other parables about the kingdom of the heavens.

    4.) Not only is he not rewarded but he is punished with something unpleasant. He is turned over to the torturers.

    5.) His handling by the torturers is not eternal but has a limit upon it - "UNTIL he should repay all that was owed."

    6.) He is excluded from the reward stage of the kingdom of the heavens. But such exclusion is temporary.

    7.) The Lord Jesus says His Father will do likewise to any disciple of Jesus who does not learn the lesson of forgiving his fellow slaves from his heart, remembering that he was forgiven of his own sins.

    8.) This teaching is equivalent to Jesus, after His second coming, telling some saved servants of His, that they will not enjoy the reward of the kingdom of the heavens. And that regardless of the fact that they acknowledged Him as Lord - "Lord, Lord" they had called sometime.

    9.) When the "until" time is reached, the slave is released from his discipline. Therefore such temprary punishment does not mean the loss of eternal redemption or eternal life.

    The nine points about would be confirmed by Paul's warning to Corinthians Christians:

    "The work of each will be manifested for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is.

    If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.

    If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:13-15)


    The unforgiving slave is an example of a saved person whose Christian service is exposed in the examination of the Lord Jesus. His failure to built the church with the forgiveness of Christ causes him to suffer loss. Yet he himself is saved after some period of dicipline. So he is saved "yet so as through fire".

    I have no interest to convince ToO of the soundness of this understanding. But, please, if you see a problem in any of this logic, point it out to me and we can discuss it further.
  14. Subscriberjosephw
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    20 Feb '10 23:19
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Its a catch 22. To announce that you are saved is a sin.

    It is also possible that TOO does not consider being saved, or sharing 'saved' status' to have anything to do with the discussion.
    "To announce that you are saved is a sin."

    Since when?

    I announce I am saved from sin! Otherwise Jesus died for nothing.


    "It is also possible that TOO does not consider being saved, or sharing 'saved' status' to have anything to do with the discussion."

    It is not possible. It is what this discussion is about. That ToO does not own up!
  15. Subscriberjosephw
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    20 Feb '10 23:23
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Lol, aha ha ha ha, spoken like a true Paulian. Why don't you just admit that Paul is your Lord?
    1 Timothy 1:16 - Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

    Why don't you just admit that your Lord is not God?

    Oh ya, you already did!
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