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Originally posted by ahosyneyMay I just point out, in the friendliest way possible (I feel kind this day),
On of them is completly supported. Since the begining of the human kind he knows GOD because the first man created have known him. And every nation came after that knows that there is one GOD, but the differ in the way they worship him.
The claim the GOD doesn't exist is the one not supported and requires ignoring a complete history of man-GOD relationship.
that many cultures has been polytheistic in nature? So they obviously
didn't relate to the "one" God. You could argue that their perception of
the one God was multifaceted, that they gave names to the different
aspects of the one God (and of course Satan) because they hadn't
realised that there was in fact just one God (and Satan). But that would
only serve to weaken your argument that there has always been a
man-God relationship in so far as to prove that we really can't be sure we
got it right this time either. Kinda like science, but without the higher
reasoning.
For all we know, there never was any God and we made them->him up to
perhaps feel more secure about our own weak and exposed position in
nature. I mean, just think about it. We have to kill other animals and
put on their skin to protect against cold and wind, and to cover ourselves
up because we're so incredibly concious about our own physical
appearances. There are many predators in nature that are much more
powerful than humans, and before we had firearms and the ability to
stand quite a distance from the prey when we killed it, it was hazardous
to say the least to go hunting. Then we have the forces of nature that
could (and still can) tear entire villages apart. When living like that I'm
sure it felt a little better to have some faith that everything will be fine as
long as you stay true to your Gods. It's all just been a refinement from
the more primitive religions with sacrifice and the like, to the quite
civilised religions we have today with sacrifices, crusades and all.
Addition: And then there are spiritual religions, where you believe
nature itself is some higher form of being or that you are so much part
of nature that you're indivisable. And the american native kind of
cultures where everyone leaves for the spirit world when they die, but I
can't remember anyone ever saying that the american natives believed
in a God per se. I could be wrong though.
Originally posted by jaywillAs stocken says, theories change. It may not be the most commonly agreed one at the moment, but its presence carries enough weight that it points out that an uncreated universe is not ruled out. Even if it is incorrect it still does not rule out an uncreated universe.
Steady state?
Went out a long time ago. Steady state I think has been pretty much put aside as probable by modern cosmology.
Big Bang is the ruling theory these days.
Originally posted by stockenFirst of all when I talked about the Big Bang I said there something else other than the universe that case everything to happen. As you said you don't know it. I didn't call it GOD, you are the one who did that? But in all cases, if you don't want it to prove anything you can do that.
The cause of the universe is beyond our understanding at the moment.
Even if we could prove (which we can't) that there was only one Big Bang,
we can't conclude anything other than that there was one Big Bang. It
doesn't tell us if some concious being caused it or if it happened for
some other reason. So, asserting that there is a God or there ...[text shortened]... exist after all.
[b]Addition: This of course, is just my opinion on the matter.[/b]
Secondly, I'm not Christian, so I Bible version of GOD is not of my interest. Actually I didn't qoute any book througth out my argument here. I'm just using my mind as you do.
Besides the Bible is not the only Book that was claimed to be the Word of GOD. Using only the Bible is not fair. But we will keep this point away for now.
As I can see so far, we cann't say that the universe was there for ever. It has a begining, so there must be something that started it. And you said that using the current knowlage we cann't tell what cause the universe to form. It doesn't matter whether it is one big bang, or two. What matters is the cause.
Originally posted by StarrmanI don't want to wast your time too. But is there one theory that say the universe was there for ever.
I'm afraid I don't have the time to give you the education you lack on matters of science. Yes, one theory is that the big bang happened and this threw out all the matter of the universe, but this still doesn't mean there was a creator, nor does it mean that this was the creation of the universe. Some scientists adhere to a bubble theory of the universe, ...[text shortened]... e it is forever expanding and contracting from big-bang to big-bang and onwards for eternity.
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Originally posted by stockenMy friend I see you are taking your ideas about religon people from Christianity which has a complete Blind faith. If any christian uses his mind towards his faith he will realize that it is not true. But not every religon has a blind faith. And many religous people try to use their minds. So generalization is not true because you don't know every religon.
The beauty of science over blind religion is that when evidence are
gathered the theories can be changed, whereas religious followers tend
to try and ignore the evidence for as long as possible, or adapt in a
metaphorical way. (The scripture was always right, we just didn't
understand it at the time because we read it wrong.)
Big Bang is just a th ...[text shortened]... meone can explain within reason how come the
universe is still accelerating in its expansion.
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Originally posted by stocken
May I just point out, in the friendliest way possible (I feel kind this day),
that many cultures has been polytheistic in nature? So they obviously
didn't relate to the "one" God. You could argue that their perception of
the one God was multifaceted, that they gave names to the different
aspects of the one God (and of course Satan) because they hadn't saying that the american natives believed
in a God per se. I could be wrong though.
Originally posted by StarrmanSo there is only one unpopular theory say that the universe is uncreated, and then you come and ask me why I cann't accept the idea that the universe is not created. Scince say it is created and you want me to accept it is not created.!!!!!!
Yes, it may not be popular, but it exists. Also, you have yet to establish why your god can be uncreated, but the universe can not.
I will tell why I cann't accept that GOD can be created. Because if he is created then there will be a stronger being that has created it. So it cann't be GOD.
GOD is the uncreated being with the ultimate power to create every thing else.
So if you call it the universe and manage to prove it then it is your GOD. But you cann't do that. So you have to search about its creator which might be the GOD. But as you don't know then you cann't realize the only creator by your mind.
I don't know if my idea is clear. But there is a creator. You don't want to call it GOD it is up to you. But that doesn't deny that there is one source for the creation.
Originally posted by ahosyneyExactly! You both get it and don't get it at the same time. We don't know the cause. You may think you know the cause. You may believe you know the cause, but I am absolutely certain that you don't. If you did know, you'd present the evidence right about now.
What matters is the cause.
I don't know either. But the argument went something like you can't assert for sure that there's a concious being, a God behind it all anymore than I can assert there isn't.
But I am willing to claim that the likelihood of there being such an entity is far less than that there isn't.
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Originally posted by ahosyneyWhy can't there be a more powerful entity than God? Why can't universe be
So there is only one unpopular theory say that the universe is uncreated, and then you come and ask me why I cann't accept the idea that the universe is not created. Scince say it is created and you want me to accept it is not created.!!!!!!
I will tell why I cann't accept that GOD can be created. Because if he is created then there will be a stronger be t GOD it is up to you. But that doesn't deny that there is one source for the creation.
eternal but without purpose? Without thought? Why? Why? Why? Anything
you or I or Starrman or anyone else would reply to these questions would be
pure speculation. In theory, it's not at all impossible that the universe is a
hap-chance construct of eternal nature. Why wouldn't it be? Because you say
there's a God? Because the God you speak of has to be more powerful than
anything else?
I'm sorry, oh condescending pile of circular reasoning, but that just doesn't
cut it.
Originally posted by ahosyneyHow do you know there is a creator?
So there is only one unpopular theory say that the universe is uncreated, and then you come and ask me why I cann't accept the idea that the universe is not created. Scince say it is created and you want me to accept it is not created.!!!!!!
I will tell why I cann't accept that GOD can be created. Because if he is created then there will be a stronger be ...[text shortened]... t GOD it is up to you. But that doesn't deny that there is one source for the creation.
Originally posted by stockenTell me where through out this thread I said that the answer of your question it is because of GOD. I didn't say that anywhere.
Why can't there be a more powerful entity than God? Why can't universe be
eternal but without purpose? Without thought? Why? Why? Why? Anything
you or I or Starrman or anyone else would reply to these questions would be
pure speculation. In theory, it's not at all impossible that the universe is a
hap-chance construct of eternal nature. Why wouldn't ...[text shortened]...
I'm sorry, oh condescending pile of circular reasoning, but that just doesn't
cut it.
I will go with you step by step:
Why can't there be a more powerful entity than God?
If there is a more powerful entity it will be the GOD. That is what I sad
Why can't universe be eternal but without purpose? Without thought? Why? Why? Why?
It cann't be the universe because it is created. So it is not the most powerful being.
It cann't be without thought because, as you see scince prove how accurate every thing. And how every thing is orginized in way that cann't be made by chance. It cann't be generated in random.
you or I or Starrman or anyone else would reply to these questions would be pure speculation.
You are the one who make speculations. You are trying to esacepe from thinking about intellegent creator. But I don't mind to think about anything else if you can prove it to me. You cann't prove that chance can create life. If you can show me that.
But if you didn't manage to prove it then you have to think about the intellegent creation.
In theory, it's not at all impossible that the universe is a
hap-chance construct of eternal nature. Why wouldn't it be?
Because there are more evedences that it is not. But that doesn't mean I reject your idea, but if you want me to belive that there is no creator you have to prove your theory.
Because you say there's a God? Because the God you speak of has to be more powerful than anything else?
Show me where I did say that. I talked about the most powerful being. Do you belive it exist or not. If you belive it exit then we can discuss whether he is my GOD or not. But I didn't assume that he is my GOD.
I'm sorry, oh condescending pile of circular reasoning, but that just doesn't cut it.
You are the one who put yourself into the circular reasining. You want to belive that the universe is eternal but you cann't accept that for GOD.
Originally posted by StarrmanI think we have been through that before...
How do you know there is a creator?
Give an example of something you know that is not created. That came by itself like that.
Even the universe which you said your are part of has a start, which mean it came into being. So did it come into being by itself, or something else cause it to be created.
If it came to being by itself then you can call it GOD if you want.
If not then it is created. And there is creator for it.
Originally posted by stockenOff course there is evidences, but before we have to reach a point:
Exactly! You both get it and don't get it at the same time. We don't know the cause. You may think you know the cause. You may believe you know the cause, but I am absolutely certain that you don't. If you did know, you'd present the evidence right about now.
I don't know either. But the argument went something like you can't a ...[text shortened]... im that the likelihood of there being such an entity is far less than that there isn't.
Is there a creator for everything or not?
Should it be intelligent creator or not?
Using my mind and only my mind I can say the answer of both questions is yes.
If you agree with me I can show more evidences. If you don't agree then you will not accept them.