God doesnt exist

Originally posted by twhitehead
...many people claim that if something is created then it [b]has to have a creator which is superior in some way to the thing being created. There are only two examples I know of, where things get created, one is the unconfirmed creation of the universe which we know nothing about, the other is the very frequent creation of particles throughout the un ...[text shortened]... the claimed 'common sense' or 'obvious' assumption that the first has a creator coming from?[/b]

Good argument. 🙂

Originally posted by stocken
Having had a good nights sleep, I read this again and realise that I may
have offended you more than I meant to. You seem to rant like you're all
emotional. I could be wrong, but if I'm not I must apologise. So, I
apologise.

I'm not talking about your God or lack of a God per se. I'm trying to point
out that you and I couldn't possibly know if the ...[text shortened]... t
critical. If it really is valid evidence, it will withstand the tear of my criticism.

To tell you the truth I didn't excpect you to reply again. You don't need to apologise.

Should I understand from this that you want me to present my evidences here? I mean the part that you may not accept (Prophets, Books) or you mean another type of evidences.

Of course I understand that you will critical for any prove I present. If I'm your place (Some times I'm when I talk to Christians) I will be more critical than you think.

So if we both agree on that I can present my evidences.

Regards

Originally posted by twhitehead
You are assuming that everyone agrees with you on certain assumptions and that all minds think alike. You say "..which against the mind" but it is only your mind which it is against not mine.
You have made a number of assumptions throughout this thread and claimed that they are obvious but given no reasoning to support this claim. They include:
1. The u ...[text shortened]... ve, a totally random process with no indications that there is an intelligent being behind it.

May be you are right in some parts, but you will see every one here has the same problem. Everyone think what his mind accept is the truth, while it might not be accepted by others.

But lets talk about my assumptions:

1. The universe has a beginning.

It is not an assumption. We talked about that before, I don't claim that I know all theories about the universe nature, but it is pointed out here in this thread that the Majority of them say it has a begining , but differe how did start. I don't assume any of them but I think there more scintific eveidences that it is created. My be I'm wrong. I will be happy if any one show me exactly where I'm wrong.

2. There must have been a creator.
I didn't assume that exactly. All what I say that every thing that has a start there must be something else that started it. That is what I think is logic. It cann't start itself because it was not there to start it self, and I think it cann't start like that without initiator. Calling this process creation doesn't make a big difference. Again I don't assume that I'm right, that is my logic you can tell me where I'm wrong.

So if we assume that the universe has a start then there should be some being started it. I don't say GOD here, I'm talking in general.

3. The creator of the universe must be conscious.
May be this point need discussion. But I will use Starrman words:

Originally posted by Starrman
I agree with you up until the last sentence, I'm not sure the word 'random' is correct. The natural processes of physical particles is perhaps better described as ordered but uncontrolled, since they follow the laws of physics. Or, even if we do not know how those movements initiate, we would guess there are rules governing them?

So it cann't be random, it is governed by some rules. The rules itself, cann't be generated by random. That is why I belive it must be conscious. Show another explaination and I will be happy.

4. The creator could not have been created.
In general I didn't mean that. I mean each creature must have a creator. So this will lead us an endless chain. What break this chain is one creator that is not created. Again I didn't say it GOD. But there must be one uncreated being that break the impossible chain.

5. The creator is omnipotent.
I don't remember I assumed that througth out the thread. My be you mean the "ultimate force". If there is another being has more power than the creator, then there will be a logical problem. Because he might, using his power, destroy what the other creator did. This will result in another creatures. That makes the first one not a creator for us, because what he created we don't see now.

6. A creator must necessarily be bigger / better than the thing it creates.

I don't know what you mean with that. But bigger doesn't mean anything. And better may be implyed after the previous question.


That is the logic I use , may be I'm wrong. But may be I'm right too.