God loves and hates!

@stellspalfie said
I get all that, he all knowing and so on. That's kinda my point. You or I may feel hate, when we do its likely to be instinctual, a response to something we see or know. We do not sit down have a think about it and then decide that we want to feel hate.
The same cannot be said of God, he is all knowing, all powerful. Nothing has power over him, nothing can make him do ...[text shortened]... or feel anything, so he chooses to feel hate, which is weird. Why feel hate when you don't have to.

He is good, and I don’t mean that in the sense of ice cream is good, also holy and righteous, just. That doesn’t make Him numb to feelings!

@kellyjay said
He is good, and I don’t mean that in the sense of ice cream is good, also holy and righteous, just. That doesn’t make Him numb to feelings!

How is it that God hates the sinners he loves so much he came to die for them?

🙂

@kellyjay said
No, scripturally speaking we were made in God's imagine and screwed that up by
allowing sin into our lives. You knew that I bet, but said this anyway.

You said: As a good God will forever hate the wicked,

When I was surprised your reply was to say just like me.
The obvious conclusion is that you think god is like me.

@kellyjay said
If an act of terror occurs against innocent children for example, I would choose to hate it, and because of who it was directed at, it wouldn’t take much deliberation on my part.

So because you choose to hate something it means god hates it too.
So god is made in your image not mine?
I'm confused Kelly.

@wolfgang59 said
So because you choose to hate something it means god hates it too.
So god is made in your image not mine?
I'm confused Kelly.

I imagine you are the way you put things together.

@kellyjay said
I imagine you are the way you put things together.

Putting together two ideas that you have posted.

@sonship said
@KellyJay

I don’t think I would go so far as to say that they were infested with an evil spirit.

I would because of Ephesians 2:2 -

" ... you once walked according to ... the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience."

This evil spirit is operating in. I t ...[text shortened]... et. But I think he had not been regenerated. How "spiritual" he was before he fell, I am not sure.

I still disagree with you, sons of disobedience, is a reference back to Adam and
Eve. The human spirit was corrupted which was why we need not only to be
forgiven, but also God’s Spirit within us to put us back into being able to be made
into God’s image. If the human condition was simply a demonic possession, to be
restored would only need God to just kick them out.

@wolfgang59 said
Putting together two ideas that you have posted.

As if all ideas can be put together and carry the meaning they were intended to have
in the first place.

@kellyjay said
As if all ideas can be put together and carry the meaning they were intended to have
in the first place.

How is it that God hates the sinners he loves so much he came to die for them?

@KellyJay
It's called consistency - something you lack, just like your bible.

@wolfgang59 said
@KellyJay
It's called consistency - something you lack, just like your bible.

Like all things if you fail to grasp the simplest of the truths, nothing will make much
sense to you when they are spoken about. You cannot just throw together any two
thoughts in several conversations and make it meaningful if you don't grasp what
is being said in the first place.

@KellyJay

Concerning whether I could say man was "infested" or not:
I thought there were some right things in what you said.

I still disagree with you, sons of disobedience, is a reference back to Adam and
Eve. The human spirit was corrupted which was why we need not only to be
forgiven, but also God’s Spirit within us to put us back into being able to be made
into God’s image. If the human condition was simply a demonic possession, to be
restored would only need God to just kick them out.

We may have a misunderstanding here on a couple of points.

1.) I did not mean to imply man's only problem is "demon possession". Not every fallen person from Adam may be possessed with a demon or demons.

2.) I did not mean to convey that Satan (the ruler of the demons) is just a demon.

Now even IF "sons of disobedience" referred NOT to all sinful human beings but JUST to Adam and Eve, I don't see how that would argue for you. I am a son of Adam and Ever, true. But there are millions of human beings whom I am related to BETWEEN Adam and Eve and me. Paul is speaking of ALL mankind as these sons of disobedience.

" ... the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience ..."

He does not say "the spirit which was [THEN] operating" He writes "the spirit which is NOW operating."

How can you say that this spirit was THEN operating in Adam and Eve but is no longer operating in any of his descendants? That is if I understand you well.

The phrase "according to the age of this world" should not be understood as only the time of Adam and Eve. It should mean the entire "age of THIS world" including Adam and Eve and all humans descended from them.

Also verse 3 says that we were "among whom".

"Among whom we also all conducted ourselves once in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts." (v.3a)

He does not mean we were only AMONG Adam and Eve. We came long after by many generations. But we were among all fallen human beings.

Furthermore I think "sons of disobedience" in verse 2 is virtually the same as "children of wrath" in verse 3.

" ... and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." (v.3b)

That has to mean the rest of all fallen mankind rather than the rest meaning Adam and Eve.

But I agree with you that just dispelling a foreign evil spirit from man will not solve his problem completely.

@sonship said
@KellyJay

Concerning whether I could say man was "infested" or not:
I thought there were some right things in what you said.

[quote] I still disagree with you, sons of disobedience, is a reference back to Adam and
Eve. The human spirit was corrupted which was why we need not only to be
forgiven, but also God’s Spirit within us to put us back into being able t ...[text shortened]... with you that just dispelling a foreign evil spirit from man will not solve his problem completely.

A lot to unpack I will get back to this.

The human spirit was corrupted which was why we need not only to be
forgiven, but also God’s Spirit within us to put us back into being able to be made
into God’s image. If the human condition was simply a demonic possession, to be
restored would only need God to just kick them out.

The human spirit was made comatose in a deadened state. And the human soul rose to be the highest part of man. It was not originally meant to be higher than the human spirit but beneath it. In the fall the human spirit was deadened and the human soul usurped the highest level.

Now I do not think the Holy Spirit of God was indwelling the human spirit of the first man and woman. But they were created as "very good". It was a goodness in their innocence and neutrality. They had a fellowship with God. But I don't think God was in them.

God would have entered into them had they eaten of the tree of life. But before they could receive God they were joined to Satan and excluded from the life of God embodied for them in "the tree of life".

The demand of God's holiness, and of God's righteousness, and of God's glory excluded them from partaking of the life of God. The barrier set between them and the tree of life.

And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever -

Then Jehovah God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to work the ground from which he was taken,

So He drove the man out, and at the east of the garden of Eden He placed the cherubim and a flaming sword which turned in every direction to guard the way to the tree of life." (Gen. 3:22 - 24)

Man with his deadened spirit is put out of the garden.
If some are able to receive it the three-fold demand of God on man is now represented by the cherubim with the flaming sword.

The cherubim signifying the glory of God. Man has fallen short of the glory of God.
The flame of the sword standing for the holiness of God. Man has fallen short of the holiness of God.
The sword standing for the righteousness of God. Man has fallen short of the righteousness of God.

Not only has this gulf of distance now separated the humans joined to Satan from the Creator God, but starting from this expulsion and ever after humans were "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18) Being excluded from partaking of "the tree of life" and ever after from receiving God's life [without the redemption of Christ that is].

"Being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance which is in them, because of the hardness of their heart ..." (Eph. 4:18)

Do you think Adam was born of God?
I don't think he was. But he was created innocent and neutral with a choice to choose to be joined to God or to be joined to the enemy of God.

Kelly, IMO be careful that the skeptics do not get you to say that God does not love sinners.

Of course He loved us. He came to save us from our sins which He does hate.

The nuisance was right when he quoted (in a style I often use)

Romans 5: 8
"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."