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Romans 1:17-19 English Standard Version (ESV)
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written,
“The righteous shall live by faith.”
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
I think about this verse when I see people make claims like, "It really looks like
design, but its not." or more modern errors when a baby is born and they cannot
tell the gender, because they think such knowledge is up to the individual not
how someone put together. When they can see the truth and have to suppress the
knowledge it is done with intent and they will be without excuse. Just as those
who can read the text of the up coming wrath of God and suppress that as if their
opinions not the Word of God is all that matters.
Romans 2:4-6 English Standard Version (ESV)
4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
6 He will render to each one according to his works:
We are being given room for repentance, which only one of two things will take
place we take a hold of God's mercy repent and turn to Him for His ever lasting
forgiveness, that we may be filled with unending love and grace and mercy, or we
continue to store up for ourselves God's wrath which will be unleashed up on the
children of disobedience in full without a drop of mercy mixed in.
Luke 19:40-42 English Standard Version (ESV)
40 He answered, “I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out.”
41 And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, 42 saying, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.
At some point in our lives if we keep suppressing the truth of God, it will also
remain hidden from our eyes, our fate would be sealed.
@sonship saidHe does not say "the spirit which was [THEN] operating" He writes "the spirit which is NOW operating."
@KellyJay
Concerning whether I could say man was "infested" or not:
I thought there were some right things in what you said.
[quote] I still disagree with you, sons of disobedience, is a reference back to Adam and
Eve. The human spirit was corrupted which was why we need not only to be
forgiven, but also God’s Spirit within us to put us back into being able t ...[text shortened]... with you that just dispelling a foreign evil spirit from man will not solve his problem completely.
It is now operating in us because we have been disobedient from the very start
until now. Simply being who we are is enough, we react out of this nature in
everything. It takes a turning away, a repentance with God's Spirit within, not to
simply avoid those urges and actions, but take on a new man. This isn't just a
suppressing of our old desires, it is crucifying them, putting on a new man in
Christ, being born again.
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It is now operating in us because we have been disobedient from the very start
until now. Simply being who we are is enough, we react out of this nature in
everything. It takes a turning away, a repentance with God's Spirit within, not to
simply avoid those urges and actions, but take on a new man. This isn't just a
suppressing of our old desires, it is crucifying them, putting on a new man in
Christ, being born again.
I say Amen to the latter part. But sin needs to be more exposed.
The spirit which is now operating ... is a evil personified thing. It is Satan which Paul personifies as sin in Romans 7.
1.) Personified, it "seizes opportunity".
But sin SEIZING the opportunity through the commandment ..." (Rom. 7:6a)
2.) Personified, after seizing the opportunity it "worked out."
" ... sin seizing the opportunity through the commandment, WORKED OUT in me coveting of every kind, ..."(v.6b)
5.) Personified, sin lay inactive without the law.
" ... for without the law sin is dead." (v.8b)
4.) Personified, sin "revived" activated to oppose the law of God.
"For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." (v.9)
You should be able to see this sin nature as a personified being.
5.) Personified, again sin was "seizing opportunity".
"For sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment ..." (v.11a)
6.) Personified, sin DECEIVED.
"For sin ... deceived me ..." (v.11a)
7.) Personified, sin sought to KILL.
"For sin ...deceived me and through it killed me."
These are the activities of the evil spirit operating in Adam and all of his descendants.
8.) Personified, sin again evilly "working out" in the fallen man.
" ... that it might be shown to be sin by WORKING OUT death in me through that which is good ..." (v.13)
9.) Personified, sin revealed itself to be exceedingly sinful this way. Opposing God's law on general principle and with all deliberateness.
"sin ... working out in me death through that which is good, that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful." (v.13b)
10.) What is dragging the sinner down is the personified sin moving man to do what he hates.
For what I work out, I do not acknowledge, for what I will, this I do not practice, but what I hate, this I do." (v.15)
11.) Personified, sin is the DWELLER, as a parasitic thing residing in man since the fall.
"Now then it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me." (v.17)
12.) Personified, sin is the "no good thing" that dwells in man's transmuted flesh.
"Not then it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me." (v.17)
13.) Personified, again Paul says SIN THAT DWELLS IN ME.
But if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me." (v.20)
14.) Personified, sin is a maker of war. Sin MAKES WAR.
"But I see a different law in my members, WARRING against the law of my mind ..." (v.23)
15.) Personified, sin wars in order to TAKE CAPTIVE.
" ... warring against the law of my mind and making me a CAPTIVE to the law of sin which is in my members." (v.23)
In order to overcome we need the proper diagnosis. And all this working of a personified SIN acting as an evil person, is the spirit operating in the sons of disobedience. This is the background we need to see how ANOTHER PERSON (Romans chapter 8), Christ is stronger and alone can counteract against the evil personified being operating in us as sin.
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@sonship saidI don’t blame the devil for my choices, I have to admit and confess them. I can be led away due to temptations playing on my lusts or reject them and submit to God.
@KellyJay
[quote] It is now operating in us because we have been disobedient from the very start
until now. Simply being who we are is enough, we react out of this nature in
everything. It takes a turning away, a repentance with God's Spirit within, not to
simply avoid those urges and actions, but take on a new man. This isn't just a
suppressing of our old desires, ...[text shortened]... rist is stronger and alone can counteract against the evil personified being operating in us as sin.
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I don’t blame the devil for my choices, I have to admit and confess them. I can be led away due to temptations playing on my lusts or reject them and submit to God.
We see nothing in Romans 7 where Paul is totally blaming his choices on the Devil or saying he has no need to confess and repent. But he is saying this personified sin is murdering, deceiving, seizing opportunity, reviving, dwelling, etc. And it is more powerful personified being stronger then his will to do good.
How can you take Romans 7 to be Paul EXCUSING sinners from responsibility? I don't see that at all.
Sure he writes under divine inspiration -
"For I do not the good which I will; but the evil which I do not will, this I practice." (v.19)
Had Paul meant to use this as an excuse to not be responsible he would not have laid down his preliminary foundation of all the world being under condemnation in chapters 1:18 through 3:20.
We have to thank God that through Paul man's predicament is exposed naked. And we should not resist it if we want to really appreciate God's salvation.
Compare these two sentences and see BOTH are a matter of a person working in man.
Negatively - Satan works from the flesh.
Now then it is no longer I that work it but sin that dwells in me." (Rom. 7:17)
Positively - Christ lives and works from the spirit.
" ... and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me ..." (Gal. 2:20)
I was relieved when I saw Paul's diagnosis. Some Christians are bothered to think Satan is in them.
I was relieved and excited all the more to appreciate Christ living in me, being able to deliver.
"Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death?
Thanks be to God, though Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin." (Rom. 7:25)
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@kellyjay saidI did. Your reply was -
I don’t think you read previous answers if you are asking this.
"He is good, and I don’t mean that in the sense of ice cream is good, also holy and righteous, just. That doesn’t make Him numb to feelings!"
- Hardly complex reading.
My reply was
I didn't imply he was numb.
"Feelings sneak up on us, we have very little control over what we feel, we can only choose how we respond once we have the feeling.
Do feelings sneak up on God?"
Your answer didn't actually address my post.
@kellyjay saidThe puddle pondering on the its perfect design for the hole it is sitting in.
Romans 1:17-19 English Standard Version (ESV)
I think about this verse when I see people make claims like, "It really looks like
design, but its not."
I think about that when I see people make claims like, "It really looks like
design, but its not."
@dj2becker saidMy 5 year-old doesn't because she has not been subjected to indoctrination.
God loves the sinner but hates the sin, even a 5 year old gets it.
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@stellspalfie said"If an act of terror occurs against innocent children for example, I would choose to hate it, and because of who it was directed at, it wouldn’t take much deliberation on my part.
I did. Your reply was -
"He is good, and I don’t mean that in the sense of ice cream is good, also holy and righteous, just. That doesn’t make Him numb to feelings!"
- Hardly complex reading.
My reply was
I didn't imply he was numb.
"Feelings sneak up on us, we have very little control over what we feel, we can only choose how we respond once we have the feeling.
Do feelings sneak up on God?"
Your answer didn't actually address my post.
There could be less stark events where thoughtfulness might be required on our part. That would never be true with God because of who He is. We live and have our being in a sliver of time we call now, God isn’t bound by time and He knows everything that is and how it could play out. This is one of the main reasons scripture points out His ways are not ours. When He makes a judgment call there is nothing overlooked in any fashion, touching anything, at any time."
I was referring to this reply.
There was another too that went to that topic.