@sonship said
Kelly, IMO be careful that the skeptics do not get you to say that God does not love sinners.

Of course He loved us. He came to save us from our sins which He does hate.

The nuisance was right when he quoted (in a style I often use)

Romans 5: 8
"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

They will twist whatever is said. The thing I am stressing is that we are only saved in Jesus Christ. He loved while we were yet sinners to send Jesus for our salvation, out side of Christ we are condemned already.

@kellyjay said
Like all things if you fail to grasp the simplest of the truths, nothing will make much
sense to you when they are spoken about. You cannot just throw together any two
thoughts in several conversations and make it meaningful if you don't grasp what
is being said in the first place.

I think you often confuse "simple" with "simplistic".

We are talking about a single conversation (not several)
where you have made two clear comments, first implying
god is like me then supporting god's hatred because you
would do the same.

Once in my image.
Once in yours.

Gods have always been created in Man's image to justify their position.

Your god has exactly the same values as you. doesn't he?

@kellyjay said
A lot to unpack I will get back to this.

Maybe you can get back to this also:

How is it that God hates the sinners he loves so much he came to die for them?

🙂

@kellyjay said
He is good, and I don’t mean that in the sense of ice cream is good, also holy and righteous, just. That doesn’t make Him numb to feelings!

I didn't imply he was numb.

Feelings sneak up on us, we have very little control over what we feel, we can only choose how we respond once we have the feeling.
Do feelings sneak up on God?

@wolfgang59

Gods have always been created in Man's image to justify their position.

Your god has exactly the same values as you. doesn't he?

I don't think people always arguing that God is on their side is proof of Atheism.
It is a problem that people will do that though - dignify their evil deeds by arguing that God condones them.

The first instance of this I see in the Bible is the case of Lamech in Genesis 4:23-24. It was known that God promised to take vengeance on anyone who took the initiative to murder Cain the killer of Abel. Capital punishment had not been allowed yet.

Lamech, who took greedily for himself two wives, killed a young man and boasted that if God avenged the killer of Cain He will much more avenge Lamech many more times.

And Lamech said to his wives ..., hearken to my speech; For I have slain a man for wounding me, even a young man for striking me.

If Cain is avenged sevenfold, then Lamech seventy-sevenfold." (See Gen. 4:23-24)

This was wicked opportunism by laying hold of God's words and twisting their meaning to justify a murderer getting away with murder.

You are arguing that there ALL reference to God by human beings involve this principle.
Its a convenient rationale built on a half truth. Its a handy rationale to deny God totally.

Ie "All talk of God is only man explaining divine sanction of his evil doing."

I won't be jumping on your convenient bandwagon. It is not realistic.

@stellspalfie said
I didn't imply he was numb.

Feelings sneak up on us, we have very little control over what we feel, we can only choose how we respond once we have the feeling.
Do feelings sneak up on God?

I don’t think you read previous answers if you are asking this.

@sonship said.

You are arguing that there ALL reference to God by human beings involve this principle.
Its a convenient rationale built on a half truth. Its a handy rationale to deny God totally.

Ie "All talk of God is only man explaining divine sanction of his evil doing."

I won't be jumping on your convenient bandwagon. It is not realistic.

This is linguistic gobbledy gook regardless of any
truth behind it. What on Earth are you saying?

I particularly do not like the part where you
tell me what I am arguing about. How pompous!

I am not even arguing. Just pointing out what has been said.

@wolfgang59

This is linguistic gobbledy gook regardless of any
truth behind it. What on Earth are you saying?

Just because its over your head doesn't mean you have to start talking like Dr. Seuss.

I particularly do not like the part where you
tell me what I am arguing about. How pompous!

Pretty pompous for you to dumb down all spiritual pursuit of man to us making God/s in our own image. Your blanket self serving diagnosis of history is pretty pompous.

I am not even arguing. Just pointing out what has been said.

You wrote:

Gods have always been created in Man's image to justify their position.

Your god has exactly the same values as you. doesn't he?

You mean you don't even know when you're arguing?

@wolfgang59 said
This is linguistic gobbledy gook regardless of any
truth behind it. What on Earth are you saying?

I particularly do not like the part where you
tell me what I am arguing about. How pompous!

I am not even arguing. Just pointing out what has been said.

Pomposity and linguist gobbledegook are two of sonships core strengths.

@divegeester said
Pomposity and linguist gobbledegook are two of sonships core strengths.

The fact that you think that pomposity and linguistic gobbledegook are strengths says a lot about you.

@wolfgang59 said
Your god has exactly the same values as you. doesn't he?

What you mean he ignores people he doesn’t like the sound of?

@dj2becker said
The fact that you think that pomposity and linguistic gobbledegook are strengths says a lot about you.

Whoosh!

@divegeester said
Whoosh!

It seems you flush whenever someone pulls your chain.

@KellyJay

They will twist whatever is said. The thing I am stressing is that we are only saved in Jesus Christ. He loved while we were yet sinners to send Jesus for our salvation, out side of Christ we are condemned already.

You are right.

Thank God we can get into Christ by receiving Christ into us.
God does this. It is of God that we are in Christ Jesus, Thanks Him.

"But it is of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became wisdom to us from God:

both righteousness and sanctification and redemption, That as it is written, 'He who boasts, le him boast in the Lord.' " (1 Cor. 1:30,31)

I am about to continue some writing on fallen man from Adam being "infested" with a foreign "element" joining him to the evil spirit in the air operating in him.

I know you are still thinking on a previous paragraph. Forgive me for adding something for us and others to consider.

Kelly,

Infested? Is it too much to use the word "infested" about the sin nature.
If "infested" should be replaced by a more biblical word, perhaps that word is "constituted"[b].

Through Adam's disobedience we were [b]constituted sinners.

"For just as through the obedience of one man the many were CONSTITUTED sinners, ..." (Rom. 5:19a, Recovery Version)

Let's see if any other English translations try to bring out this in the Greek.

King James Bible
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,

Most versions say "made sinners" like the KJV.

J. N. Darby's translation may have been the RcV's model for agreement.

Darby Bible Translation
For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners,

And Weymouth's translation -

Weymouth New Testament
For as through the disobedience of the one individual the mass of mankind were constituted sinners,

Also Young's Literal Translation has "constituted".

Young's Literal Translation
for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one

I will admit that Paul has the positive version of the word in relation to Christ coming into us to make us righteous.

Young's Literal Translation
for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.

.... in which case I would not want to use the word "infested".