Originally posted by Will EverittWe don't make our children. God does.
I'm sorry from this it looks like you are saying you can kill your children as you made them.
Also does anyone else think the name of this thread make it sound like god has been murdered? Thats what i thought the first time I saw it
Originally posted by The Chess Express
People have been dying of diseases ever since Adam took the bite heard around the world. If this was mass murder, then God murders millions every year.
That's right. If you believe in a God who values peace and tranquility,
then the existence of turmoil and illness is irreconcilable. That is,
such is the case if you think God has infinite power and goodness.
Either suffering is a bad thing, or it isn't.
If you want to hold that suffering is a not a bad thing, then you will have
to explain why Jesus demanded that we strive to minimize it among
our neighbors. If you want to hold that it is a bad thing, then you
will have to explain why God doesn't use his omnipotence to intercede.
I don’t believe it was murder though. We all come from God, and we are all his whether we know it or like it. Is it not selfish to assume that a baby is ours? Is it not ignorant to assume that we made the baby? Is the baby not better off in Heaven with God at any rate? We don’t even realize who we are and we think we know everything.
If this is the case -- that the baby is better off in heaven -- why not
engage in murder or infanticide or anything else? What harm can you
do to a person that way? Harm their corporeal selves? Big deal! It's
their souls that matter. If you want to argue that babies who die
horrible, painful deaths because of congenital illnesses are really
'better off,' then why not euthanize all babies?
Hell, why not kill yourself, have someone kill you, or place yourself in
precarious danger all the time? If the result is the greatest of gifts --
getting to heaven -- then what gain is there in wasting time on this
cesspool of a planet?
It's an absurd construction!
To accept God as the highest power and authority, the creator of all life etc, etc, is to believe that he acts in this way all the time and is right to do so. God knows what those babies did in their last lives. He knows all kinds of things that we don’t. Maybe those babies were murders themselves at some point. Who can say?
So, your benovolent God makes them suffer through reincarnation
into a baby with some sort of disease. Nice guy.
This 'God knows, we don't, let's trust that the pain we suffer is to God's
greater glory' does not lead to wonderful conclusions about God's
goodness. You may believe it, but then your god is a jerk.
Nemesio
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressI expected that reply. But let's just assume for a moment that we would be able to make our children, or create some other intelligent life forms. If that were the case, do you think it would be okay to murder them? How would the fact that you were responsible for their existence justify cruelty?
We don't make our children. God does.
Originally posted by joelekSo much for God being merciful
There's no rationalization required.
Egypt was a heathen nation, deserving of the judgment of God. They did not follow YHWH or any of his ways. He could have justly wiped the entire nation off the earth, but He didn't. He was then, as He is today, merciful in not immediately judging everyone who deserved it.
I can't believe the number of people out there that have a hard time understanding the difference between judgment and murder.
Originally posted by NemesioThat's right. If you believe in a God who values peace and tranquility,
People have been dying of diseases ever since Adam took the bite heard around the world. If this was mass murder, then God murders millions every year.[/b]
That's right. If you believe in a God who values peace and tranquility,
then the existence of turmoil and illness is irreconcilable. That is,
such is the case if you think God has infinite pow ...[text shortened]... conclusions about God's
goodness. You may believe it, but then your god is a jerk.
Nemesio[/b]
then the existence of turmoil and illness is irreconcilable. That is,
such is the case if you think God has infinite power and goodness.
Either suffering is a bad thing, or it isn't.
God has given us free will. With free will comes error and suffering. This is better than being mindless slaves because everybody will one day learn. This is what the scripture teaches.
If you want to hold that suffering is a not a bad thing, then you will have
to explain why Jesus demanded that we strive to minimize it among
our neighbors.
Nobody likes to suffer, and it’s cruel to inflict suffering on others, but there are two sides to everything. Often times we learn through our suffering. Again, suffering is the consequence of free will.
Matt 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offenses! For it must needs be that offenses come: but woe to that man by whom offense cometh!
If you want to hold that it is a bad thing, then you will have to explain why God doesn't use his omnipotence to intercede.
I’m sure God does many times. This is called forgiveness.
Here Jesus forgives the sins of a sick man and heals him. He makes it clear that the sickness was brought on by the man’s sins.
John 5:14 Afterwards, Jesus findeth him in the temple and said unto him: Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
From this verse we can gather that the more love there is in the world the less suffering there will be.
Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, her sins, which are many, are forgiven: for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
If this is the case -- that the baby is better off in heaven -- why not
engage in murder or infanticide or anything else? What harm can you
do to a person that way? Harm their corporeal selves? Big deal! It's
their souls that matter. If you want to argue that babies who die
horrible, painful deaths because of congenital illnesses are really
'better off,' then why not euthanize all babies?
If you believe that souls are sent to earth for a reason, then you should believe that it is wrong to cut that time short. We come from God, and God knows why we are here and what we have done. This is why it is wrong for us to end a persons time here on earth but not God.
Hell, why not kill yourself, have someone kill you, or place yourself in
precarious danger all the time? If the result is the greatest of gifts --
getting to heaven -- then what gain is there in wasting time on this
cesspool of a planet?
It's an absurd construction!
You’re correct. What you just posted there is definitely absurd, and it contradicts the scripture.
So, your benovolent God makes them suffer through reincarnation
into a baby with some sort of disease. Nice guy.
Again, reap what you sow. The law of Karma. If Hitler was reborn as a deformed baby would you think that God was unjust?
This 'God knows, we don't, let's trust that the pain we suffer is to God's
greater glory' does not lead to wonderful conclusions about God's
goodness.
It helps if you are willing to take responsibility for your own actions and not blame it all on God. Usually we suffer as much as we decide to suffer.
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Originally posted by NordlysThis is a bad analogy because we are not God. We didn’t make everything that exists, and we are not involved with the evolution and management of souls.
I expected that reply. But let's just assume for a moment that we would be able to make our children, or create some other intelligent life forms. If that were the case, do you think it would be okay to murder them? How would the fact that you were responsible for their existence justify cruelty?
There are reasons that we can not fathom why God does the things that he does. Hence the phrase “God works in mysterious ways.”
Originally posted by NordlysGod did not make us as little gods. Think of it as if you could create a flea. Even this would be a huge exaggeration of the relative scope. But lets go forward. Would it be cruel for you to kill this flea?
I expected that reply. But let's just assume for a moment that we would be able to make our children, or create some other intelligent life forms. If that were the case, do you think it would be okay to murder them? How would the fact that you were responsible for their existence justify cruelty?
Now lest make the scope a little more realistic. Suppose you created a clay plate. Would it be cruel to break it? You are responsible for the "existence" of the plate. And the relative complexity and scope between you and the plate is tiny compared to God and you. Now why should the plate have any claim over you. You created it. You could stick it on a shelf and forget about it. Or you could launch it in the air and use it for target practice. Neither would be immoral.
People are thinking beings. So what? Does that put us on par with God. A plate is an physical object just like you. It has mass and volume just like you. Do you now have no right over the plate because you share some characteristics with the plate. Are we not allowed to kill animals for food? Are we not allowed to eat a hamburger because a cow is a living creature? Corn also has life. Don't eat that corn you murder! You should go to jail for eating that pizza.
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Originally posted by ColettiIf I don't think it would be immoral to break the clay plate you created, it's not because it's so much less complex than you are, it's because it doesn't have consciousness, feelings or the ability to suffer. I am not sure about these attributes when it comes to fleas, but if I were able to create a flea, I don't think I would feel it would be right to kill or harm it. Whether or not the being you create is on par with you or not, doesn't have anything to do with the question.
God did not make us as little gods. Think of it as if you could create a flea. Even this would be a huge exaggeration of the relative scope. But lets go forward. Would it be cruel for you to kill this flea?
Now lest make the scope a little more realistic. Suppose you created a clay plate. Would it be cruel to break it? You are responsible for the " ...[text shortened]... n also has life. Don't eat that corn you murder! You should go to jail for eating that pizza.
Killing for food is quite different from killing just for fun or because you don't like what you created anymore. And to my knowledge, corn doesn't have consciousness or feelings.
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressA handy phrase. But for some mysterious reason God has created me without the ability to accept it as an "explanation" for everything which sounds very wrong.
There are reasons that we can not fathom why God does the things that he does. Hence the phrase “God works in mysterious ways.”
Originally posted by NordlysGreat, Nordlys. Now you have upset my spoons. I'm going to be up all night trying to comfort them.
If I don't think it would be immoral to break the clay plate you created, it's not because it's so much less complex than you are, it's because it doesn't have consciousness, feelings or the ability to suffer.
Originally posted by NordlysBut to God, you are just like a clay plate. Makes you wonder why he didn't send down Jesus to suffer for the sins of the cups and saucers.
A handy phrase. But for some mysterious reason God has created me without the ability to accept it as an "explanation" for everything which sounds very wrong.
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Originally posted by NordlysWell, you could try this approach.
A handy phrase. But for some mysterious reason God has created me without the ability to accept it as an "explanation" for everything which sounds very wrong.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
“It helps if you are willing to take responsibility for your own actions and not blame it all on God. Usually we suffer as much as we decide to suffer.”
An atheist believes that we mostly cause our own suffering. This is one thing that they have going for them.