20 Jun 13
Originally posted by Rank outsiderYahshua (Jesus) is the Son of God manifested in the flesh with much of His God powers removed. So He needs to be nicer to try to convince people to do His will and the will of the Father, who does not have to be nice, but is anyway so that He can save His chosen people from ruin. However, He doesn't give a damn about the unchosen people, and they can go to hell for all He cares.
If a human being carried out some of the exact same acts as God did in the OT, and even if the acts that prompted this reaction were immoral, and he gave repeated warnings and asked the victims to repent in advance to save themselves, you would call that human a psychotic mass murderer. Well, I hope you would.
So it is not an unreasonable descriptio ...[text shortened]... hy you needed people to come up with ever more artful reasons to explain away the contradiction.
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20 Jun 13
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Originally posted by Suziannemmmmnnnnnn, didnt take into consideration the unruly mob theory.......clever move......but the mini-van has a superb stereo system, the gravelly dulcet tones of michael bolton (provided directly from gods private cd collection) calms the mob, distracting them long enough for the mini-van to make a speedy get-a-away...........atheist logic always wins!!!!
Would a mini-van have kept them safe from an unruly mob demanding that he take them too?
20 Jun 13
Originally posted by Rank outsiderI am sure you believe the electric chair for criminals is immoral too. However, others like myself would pull the switch and feel we did a good and moral thing for humanity.
Sorry, but I don't think there is, or needs to be, a last and final authority. I am happy with my position that stoning someone to death is immoral. I am sad that you don't think it is.
I think that the use of the 'buck stops here' phrase was, in any case, poorly chosen. It may mean something different to you, but to me it does not just mean some ...[text shortened]... not be exempt from criticism and challenge, just because he is very powerful and created us.
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Sorry, but I don't think there is, or needs to be, a last and final authority. I am happy with my position that stoning someone to death is immoral. I am sad that you don't think it is.
Then you really have no basis to complain about the unrightness of anything. If not ultimate standard exists then how can there be an infraction?
You want to slap God on the face. But you have to sit on His lap in order to reach His face. I don't think you can have it both ways.
You have to borrow the Christian world view in order to use it to scold God for being evil.
I think that the use of the 'buck stops here' phrase was, in any case, poorly chosen.
Maybe it is not the best phrase. But I think it communicates that the responsibility to finally RIGHT what is WRONG ends up somewhere. If it ends nowhere than anarchy is the rule of the day. Whatever is good in your eyes is good. Its all then a matter of taste, like the preference of ice cream flavors.
It may mean something different to you, but to me it means someone who does not try to pass responsibility on to someone else. But it also means that the person can and should be held accountable for their mistakes.
It means that too. But the "passing" may be that one realizes that someone else is more in authority to decide on that issue. It is not only passing due to laziness.
You've heard the expression "That's above my pay grade" perhaps?
It is above my level of wisdom to decide who should live this very day and who should die. What child should maybe die and what old man's life should be extended ? That is out of the jurisdiction of my level of wisdom.
I think it is within the sphere of God's wisdom. Many other things are too.
It is not passing the buck only because of laziness. It is recognizing that I do not have all the facts, all the knowledge, and all the factors about this person's life. God Almighty does.
Consider the story of Hezekiah. Oh come on. Just a little bit.
The story - God tells Hezekiah, who has had a good life, to prepare himself to die. It is time for him to make his exit. Hezekiah tears up, sobs and requests of God an extention.
In sympathy God grants Hezekiah an extension of 15 more years according to his request. Pretty touching.
IMMEDIATELY afterwards Hezekiah makes his biggest blunder due to pride. Not only so. But we get a window into the heart of Hezekiah. When the prophet tells Hezekiah how God has to now discipline him, he says (and the RSV says secretly as if only he heard it) - "Just as long as there is peace in my time."
The pristine record of a godly king is therefore soiled. All the world now sees it. He blew it.
The lesson of Hezekiah to me is that sometime when God says it is time to throw in the towel in life, He knows best. He knows how much you can bear. And He knows that temptation around the corner may be too great for you to withstand.
God has the wisdom. Not that we should not desire a long life or seek medical attention. But we should rest in His sovereignty.
I fear I may be getting away from the original issue a bit. My point above is that God has the wisdom to know our times.
But that does not apply to God. If he says stoning a women to death is OK, you just accept that it is. There is no comeback for God or accountability.
If I was in that society and a friend was so guilty of the offense I would urge them to seek the remedy of an atoning offering first. Since such were instituted why assume that eagerness to execute is the only reaction ?
I think you underestimate that the feelings of people were just as real then as they are now.
The same God rescues Rahab the harlot and her entire house in a dramatic salvation in the destruction of Jericho.
Your jumping at the assumption that God and the Hebrews were eager to execute to death is only useful to you as rationale to imagine God needs to sit at your feet to learn about ethics.
Just as a President should also not be above the law, God should not be exempt from criticism and challenge, just because he is very powerful and created us.
Of course the President is not above the law.
God should not be exempt from criticism and challenge, just because he is very powerful and created us.
Now that is interesting. The oldest book in the Bible Job contains chapter after chapter of a very righteous man taking God to task about his unfair treatment.
It is like "equal time for the human complaint department" there in Job.
The interesteing thing to me in the book of Job is that at one point God says to Job "Will you condemn Me that you may be justified?"
Interestingly enough this is exactly what happens in human history. Jesus Christ the Righteous - God incarnate, comes to be condemned under divine judgment that the sinner may be justified.
I take up the offer. Christ the Righteous One is condemned at Calvary that I the sinner may be justified before God.
20 Jun 13
Originally posted by stellspalfielol... okay, now that's a pretty good theory, but one might expect that michael bolton music might only enrage the implied sinful unruly mob.
mmmmnnnnnn, didnt take into consideration the unruly mob theory.......clever move......but the mini-van has a superb stereo system, the gravelly dulcet tones of michael bolton (provided directly from gods private cd collection) calms the mob, distracting them long enough for the mini-van to make a speedy get-a-away...........atheist logic always wins!!!!
Ozzy Osbourne music, now... one could envision the mini-van taking off to the strains of "Flying High Again" while the crowd stands back banging their heads...
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20 Jun 13
Originally posted by sonship"Interestingly enough this is exactly what happens in human history. Jesus Christ the Righteous - God incarnate, comes to be condemned under divine judgment that the sinner may be justified"Sorry, but I don't think there is, or needs to be, a last and final authority. I am happy with my position that stoning someone to death is immoral. I am sad that you don't think it is.
Then you really have no basis to complain about the unrightness of anything. If not ultimate standard exists then how can there be an infraction?
You ...[text shortened]... s One is condemned at Calvary that I the sinner may be justified before God.
us saying to god that some of his actions are immoral is not the same as this. this is god coming to earth and condemning himself to a temporary death under a set of rules that he himself has chose seemingly arbitrarily to help humans with a concept 'sin' that he himself has invented!!!! its total and utter nonsense.
20 Jun 13
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe flood comes to mind. Lets see, a few hundred thousand humans offed and a few BILLION animals, some of which were smart enough to know something serious was happening. Sounds like murder to me.
why? can you cite a single example where God arbitrarily executed divine justice upon anyone without giving them prior warning and seeking their repentance? No neither can I.
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20 Jun 13
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Originally posted by Suziannethis is a godly mission. bolton's the closest he comes to rock, if you want ozzy then somebodies got go cap in hand down to see satan and everybody knows how tight he is about lending cd's.
lol... okay, now that's a pretty good theory, but one might expect that michael bolton music might only enrage the implied sinful unruly mob.
Ozzy Osbourne music, now... one could envision the mini-van taking off to the strains of "Flying High Again" while the crowd stands back banging their heads...
little know story but fact - during jesus time in the wilderness the closest he came to cracking was when satan asked if he wanted to come down to hell and listen to his new copy of the white album............on vinyl!!! jesus had to skip to kenny g on his ipod to distract himself from satans temptations. true story.
20 Jun 13
Originally posted by stellspalfieI'm not entirely convinced.
this is a godly mission. bolton's the closest he comes to rock, if you want ozzy then somebodies got go cap in hand down to see satan and everybody knows how tight he is about lending cd's.
little know story but fact - during jesus time in the wilderness the closest he came to cracking was when satan asked if he wanted to come down to hell and listen ...[text shortened]... us had to skip to kenny g on his ipod to distract himself from satans temptations. true story.
I have a CD collection FULL of rock. And that includes Black Sabbath, Ozzy, Metallica, AC/DC, among others. But I'm not exactly going to go join Satan and his minions. Maybe I don't have to worry about his offers to come hear his collection, since I have my own. 😀
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us saying to god that some of his actions are immoral is not the same as this. this is god coming to earth and condemning himself to a temporary death under a set of rules that he himself has chose seemingly arbitrarily to help humans with a concept 'sin' that he himself has invented!!!! its total and utter nonsense.
I do not see the redemptive work of the Son of God as "utter nonsense."
Now, to assume that God is righteous but there is no consequence for unrighteousness, is more nonsensical to me.
To assume that God's love means that anything is permitted in the way of evil, is nonsensical to me.
To assume that both the great love of God and the great righteousness of God He is unable to coordinate together, is nonsensical to me now. That the greatest Person could coordinate His infinite love at the same time with His infinite righteousness, makes sense to me.
That God's hatred for sin and His love for the sinner could be simultaneously manifested at Calvary, does make sense to me.
What also makes sense to me is that God has a way to say to the entire human race, in essence -
"As far as it is possible for you to comprehend, as far as it is possible for you to understand, I laid down all that I am in love that you could be saved from infraction against my law."
This is profound, not easy to explain. But it is not nonsensical. And greater intellects down through the centuries have mused upon this writing more volumes of contemplation than on any other subject I can think of, indicate that quite a few astute minds did not consider it nonsense in the dismissive way you tout here.
(not saying no smart people have said "poppy cock" ) Just saying profound, difficult yes. Nonsense ? I don't think so.
I'll put it to you this way. Had I ten lives on earth to live I would not want to waste ONE of them being a disbeliever in the Son of God. Not ONE life would I consider being worth it, living without Jesus.
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20 Jun 13
Originally posted by Suziannei have two words for you................christian rock.............sorry, below the belt, i know. but it needed to be put out there. thats the only rock you will be allowed in heaven. it will be piped into ether, non stop, un-turn-offable christian rock 24/7. there is nothing worse than virgins with guitars writing terrible prose and looking for words that rhyme with crucifixion.
I'm not entirely convinced.
I have a CD collection FULL of rock. And that includes Black Sabbath, Ozzy, Metallica, AC/DC, among others. But I'm not exactly going to go join Satan and his minions. Maybe I don't have to worry about his offers to come hear his collection, since I have my own. 😀
20 Jun 13
20 Jun '13 04:08 (Eight Hours Ago)
"what happened to god between the o.t. and n.t? did he have a life changing experience that calmed him, maybe the o.t. was his teenage years full of emotion and testosterone and the o.t. was him moving towards middle age, settling down (starting a family). did he take a break? maybe go exploring the indian sub-continent...........maybe he found god." (OP)
> 'Focus Bump' for an incredibly active thread. (gb)