Originally posted by josephwSome Christians believe that keeping non-believers 'alive' in the afterlife so that they can be burnt in agony forever as punishment and revenge for non-belief ~ even when the non-belief is sincere and intellectually honest ~ is a testament to the Christian God's "glory" and an example of "perfect justice".
Why don't you ask me about eternal life? Why the fixation on "torment" and "agony"? Seems to me that eternal life would be a much more interesting topic to discuss than worrying over something one had no power over.
You once said on this forum that you found the very notion that God would do that "repulsive". I can dig it out, but would it be worth the effort when you are inclined to just blank out references to past blurtings? It may be somewhere on Thread 161363.
Mine is not a "fixation", but instead an intellectual and spiritual interest that belongs fairly and squarely on this discussion forum, and that interest is ...
~ in what this grotesque and depraved aspect of Christian ideology means for the rest of the ideology,
~ in whether someone who propagates such noxious and morally incoherent nonsense can speak with any kind of validity or credibility about any form of 'lesser' or imperfect "justice" when the "perfect" kind is so ludicrous.
~ in whether any obedience or worship or fear that this utterly demented form of attempted coercion [according to the ideology, anyway] can legitimately be referred to "love"
~ and in whether there is any semblance of logic in the idea that this "eternal torture" punishment and revenge has one whit of deterrence effect on those that don't believe it ~ the very people it is supposedly supposed to deter [from their non-belief!!].
~ finally I am interested in how some Christians believe in it, and some Christians don't. I also find it interesting, when you are asked about your belief regarding this, as you have been on this thread, for the umpteenth time, you cannot give a straight answer.
If you want to start a thread on "eternal life" in your efforts to avoid answering this head on question about "eternal torture", be my guest.
25 Jun 15
To chaney3—
I understand that you are seeking, and that you are frustrated—in part because you now doubt what you were likely taught, even perhaps conditioned to believe, must be the truth. Now you are unsure. That is a good thing—even if you return to the religious paradigm you are now questioning.
I am not going to argue for any particular religious paradigm here, including my own. That, I believe would be a disservice to you. That is because I suspect that—for you, as it has been for me—the issue might go a bit deeper. I might be wrong; if I am, perhaps you will take offense, perhaps not. But I’m not sure that what you want right now is a cacophony of voices trying to convince you that their concept of god, and only their concept of god, is the right one—no matter how well-meaning they might be.
But I am going to recommend a book: The Wisdom of Insecurity by Alan Watts. Watts happens to have been an Episcopal priest who became a Buddhist who became a Taoist—but his particular religious/philosophical journey is not the point of this book (whether he mentions it in this work, I do not recall). It is about the quest for certainty-in-truth. You may find thoughts that are helpful, without agreeing with all of it—that’s what critical reading is all about.
The reason that I recommend a book here, rather than summarizing my own thoughts on it, is precisely because what I say here might be taken as one more argument. [But, if you are familiar with 12-step programs, it all has something to do with Step 3—not so much as literally written, but as broadly interpreted in practice by various sorts of believers and non-believers.]
Be well.
25 Jun 15
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Originally posted by FMFThough I still do it from time to time (almost reflexively, unfortunately), I am becoming convinced that personal history is just generally irrelevant (at best) to these threads, and that issues can better be discussed without that kind of self-reference in any way. “Just thinking out loud” . . .
To be fair, he did ask me about my beliefs a few times. And he seemed concerned about my sexuality too. 😵
Originally posted by josephwAfter chastising me a few pages ago and saying 'what do you mean, I've told you what I believe about hell' (or words to that effect), I gave you the opportunity to state unequivocally what you believed and you ignored it! Suzianne rails on and on about posters ruining threads because they keep asking the same question over and over again - well it is because of the evaisvenss exhibited by posters like you and chaney3 that questions keep getting repeated over and over again. Here is my question to you again...for the umpteenth time...
What's with the [bump] thing?
I believe, FMF, that everything is in God's hands to do with as He chooses. After all, an omniscient God doesn't make mistakes, and is just in all His ways.
Do you, or do you not, believe that there will be human beings suffering eternally at the hands of god.
Yes or no?
Ps I'm fairly certain that you will pretend that you haven't seen this post btw.
Originally posted by chaney3OK so you are not a Christian and I am, therefore when you say "we" and "our God" you are not pitching the argument correctly because we come from different perspectives. It is not "our God", it is my God. You are a theist (or at least an agnostic based on what you've said), but not a Christian, so you can relax about the OT as it has none or at least very little impact on your belief structure. What you are doing is attacking my God, which is fine of course. I just wanted you to be honest about it.
I believe in a God. I have no idea who that God is. I cannot call myself a Christian because I don't understand the trinity. I was rude to you and I am sorry.
I just want the truth about God, and I don't ever think I will know it.
I have answered your question divegeester.
25 Jun 15
Originally posted by vistesdHello visited, it is nice to see you making a rare appearance here. I know you left a while ago after some clashes in the debates forum (I think), but it would be good to see you getting involved again if you can find the time and inclination.
[b]To chaney3—
I understand that you are seeking, and that you are frustrated—in part because you now doubt what you were likely taught, even perhaps conditioned to believe, must be the truth. Now you are unsure. That is a good thing—even if you return to the religious paradigm you are now questioning.
I am not going to argue for any particular r ...[text shortened]... as broadly interpreted in practice by various sorts of believers and non-believers.]
Be well.[/b]
25 Jun 15
Originally posted by divegeesterHello, old friend—and thanks. It wasn’t any particular clash—or any particular persons—just that I (for various reasons) can’t take the heat anymore. That’s my problem, no one else’s. I always enjoyed our discussions (which could be peppery, but always content-full and thought provoking—of course, we were often in agreement, as well). Anyway, I still visit from time to time and, as you say, might put in “a rare appearance”. But that’s all. As always, be well.
Hello visited, it is nice to see you making a rare appearance here. I know you left a while ago after some clashes in the debates forum (I think), but it would be good to see you getting involved again if you can find the time and inclination.
Originally posted by FMFNo, it's just you voicing you opinion and telling me what you think of what I say.
Me calling you out for posting hair-trigger half-baked not-thought-through nonsense time and time again has not got, in any shape or form, anything to do with making "rules" for you. Don't be so paranoid. It's just me responding candidly to the kind of stuff you too often post. 🙂
What is truly silly is your insistence that God's truth is an ideology invented by man. It's a silly, silly, silly opinion of yours that you beat on ad nauseam. 😉
Originally posted by divegeesterI'll tell you the same thing I told FMF. God is infallible and just. We are all in His hands to do with as He wills. What I believe is irrelevant, but what God says will be done.
After chastising me a few pages ago and saying 'what do you mean, I've told you what I believe about hell' (or words to that effect), I gave you the opportunity to state unequivocally what you believed and you ignored it! Suzianne rails on and on about posters ruining threads because they keep asking the same question over and over again - well it is bec ...[text shortened]...
Yes or no?
Ps I'm fairly certain that you will pretend that you haven't seen this post btw.
I have shared with you and others what the scriptures say about hell, outer darkness and the lake of fire. Let the Word of God speak to you about these things. What does God say? That's what you need to know. Not my words, but God's.
That's all you're going to get out of me about it in this forum. Sorry if you don't like that, but that's my final word here about that topic.
25 Jun 15
Originally posted by josephwWhen you let "the Word of God speak to you about these things" ~ by which I mean "eternal torture" ~ is He as evasive and as equivocal as you? You ask divegeester "What does God say?" What about the same question addressed to you? "What does God say [to you, josephw, about the notion of "eternal torture" for non-believers]?"
I have shared with you and others what the scriptures say about hell, outer darkness and the lake of fire. Let the Word of God speak to you about these things. What does God say? That's what you need to know. Not my words, but God's.
25 Jun 15
Originally posted by FMFGod doesn't say "eternal torture". You do. You can read the Bible for yourself and learn what it says about hell, outer darkness and the lake of fire. If and when you don't understand it you can ask me what I think about what it says.
When you let "the Word of God speak to you about these things" ~ by which I mean "eternal torture" ~ is He as evasive and as equivocal as you? You ask divegeester "What does God say?" What about the same question addressed to you? "What does God say [to you, josephw, about the notion of "eternal torture" for non-believers]?"
That might be more interesting than listening to your inflammatory language.
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God destroys Sodom.....including innocent children: Guilty.
God destroys the entire planet in the Noah flood...including children. Guilty.
God makes a bet with the devil to destroy Job, in the book of Job, and allows Job's family to be killed. Guilty.
God hardens the heart of pharoah 10 times, and the 10th plague kills the first born children of the land. Guilty.
If God had not taken these steps, the human race would have ended a long time ago.
So in all honesty, "Not Guilty"