@FMF
Going back
Why then does he have no evidence to support his repeated claims that, here on this forum, "Jesus is flowing through" him and that he is "becoming more like Jesus"?
You're saying that of course YOU would be an infallible detector.
Suppose you aren't?
Don't you have a vested interest in believing no such thing exists as the Holy Spirit ?
If everything "hinges on" it, why can he not point to anything about himself to substantiate his self-aggrandizing claims?
Sorry. As the Scripture said - out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. Me too.
Do you really think you saying " Umm I don't see it." will cause me to deny God's word and my personal experience and that of thousands of others I know?
Jesus didn't say "out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water ONLY if atheist FMF approves."
sonship is, after all, claiming that he is becoming like a person he believes was "the highest manifestation of moral goodness".
I gave you ample chance to produce someone else who you are more impressed with.
And he is claiming that a person he believes was "the highest manifestation of moral goodness" is "flowing through" him here in this community.
And you are claiming that that has to meet the approval of an Atheist first who denies any Spirit of Christ and really any objective REAL virtue anyway.
So if you say the Spirit doesn't flow then that's enough for us to surmise that Jesus lied?
Not a chance.
Big "hinge". Big "claims". No evidence.
Not devastated fella.
Even the Son of God Himself so aggravated some self righteous people that they clamored for His death. "NO evidence that He expresses God to us ! Away with Him. Crucify Him!"
Some will just not be impressed.
Still I believe I am absolutely on the right track to regard Jesus of Nazareth to be God come in the flesh - a goodness above which a more goodness cannot be imagined.
You're going to propose some possible candidates though. Right?
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He is righteous with a radiant splendor unmatched by anyone else.
For example?
You were asked to furnish a more impressive example.
You haven't yet.
"No radiancy. No splendor" You imply.
But here is a life which has divided human history (at least in the West) into two sections - Before Christ and In Year of Our Lord ( okay, in the Christian Era ). Just about the same difference. "BCE" and "CE" just about the same significance.
The effect is that the world is saying "This man having come, things will never be the same ever after. "
That's what I mean by the splendor and radiance of His moral impact.
@sonship saidWhat changes the Christians made ~ hundreds of years after Jesus was executed ~ to the way the years are counted is not an example of Jesus' "perfect morality". Do you think it is an example of that?
But here is a life which has divided human history (at least in the West) into two sections - Before Christ and In Year of Our Lord ( okay, in the Christian Era ). Just about the same difference. "BCE" and "CE" just about the same significance.
@sonship saidAs a moral agent, how does your belief in Jesus' "perfect morality" and your belief that he is "the highest manifestation of moral goodness" affect you or affect your moral behaviour?
That's what I mean by the splendor and radiance of His moral impact.
What evidence is there of "the splendour and radiance of His moral impact" on you? If you have 'none', just say so.
You have made specific and explicit claims about this "impact", this "flowing", this "becoming more like" him.
Do you have any specific and explicit evidence to back your claims? If you have 'none', just say so.
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As a moral agent, how does your belief in Jesus' "perfect morality" and your belief that he is "the highest manifestation of moral goodness" affect you or affect your moral behaviour?
You are asking the wrong question. It is how does the living and available Christ effect me.
I do not cooperate with your jury posing your question with an underlying assumption that Christ did not rise from the dead and is merely a human philosophy. I don't go along with your underlying innuendo.
That is the first thing. It is the living Christ that has come to live in His believers.
"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
"Now the Lord is the Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom." (2 Cor. 3:17)
If Christ was not able to become one with His believers, it would make little difference how my holding Christ as the highest manifestation of morality would effect me. That is not the route I want to pursue. That is just a philosophy. Maybe that might effect me. But that is not the new covenant.
The new covenant is Christ as the divine life giving Spirit uniting with my innermost being.
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
The communities that we are building throughout the continents as local churches are built up with people living by Christ with the harmony, charity, practicality, love, mutuality that His Spirit supplies - "the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:19)
Secondly, I am not naive. I know full well that however I speak to you of Christ's living in me effecting my living you are sure to respond that it is not good enough for you. So this little game of you badgering Christians with "Impress me. Impress me." I will not play.
[quote
What evidence is there of "the splendour and radiance of His moral impact" on you? If you have 'none', just say so. [/quote]
I turn the question around to you. What evidence have you given that you would recognize Christ effect on me?
Do you not have a strong vested interest in atheism.
And I did not say I was radiantly or gloriously righteous. I said Christ was. And you refuse by comparison to submit that another person strikes you that way more.
The only other thing I will write here is that John 7:39 is true and I intend to enjoy the flowing of the indwelling Holy Spirit today, even this very hour. You don't honestly think we are going to dismiss that wonderful promise simply because you turn up your nose with "Christian, I am not impressed with you." ?
John 7:39 doesn't promise that every atheist will know the Spirit is flowing as rivers of living water in the lovers of Christ.
You have made specific and explicit claims about this "impact", this "flowing", this "becoming more like" him.
Do you have any specific and explicit evidence to back your claims? If you have 'none', just say so.
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I'll settle for your answers to the questions about the claims you have repeatedly made about yourself.
Jesus promised the Holy Spirit in John 7:39. My "claiming for myself" is just my testifying that I believe that word there is certainly true.
I have experienced it.
I want to experience it more deeply as no doubt I will.
What I am "claiming for myself" is simply claiming what Christ predicted for all those who believe in Him and receive the Spirit. There is nothing privileged or elite about it in the sense that the same enjoyment could be yours as well, if you believed into Christ.
You seem to want to make the promise be that these rivers of living water will slam every atheist against the wall.
Not just yet. It is a flowing for quenching thirst and not for slamming opposing people against the wall.
But the thirsty within, the thirsty, may come to Him and drink to quench their thirst.
"Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirst, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the SCripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (John 7:37-39)
You're going to have to work really hard to get me to be embarrassed by this wonderful prophecy of Jesus.
@sonship saidIf you are now denying that you have repeatedly claimed, on this forum, that "Jesus is flowing through" you and that you are "becoming more like Jesus", then so be it.
You have made specific and explicit claims about this "impact", this "flowing", this "becoming more like" him.
Do you have any specific and explicit evidence to back your claims? If you have 'none', just say so.
@sonship saidWhat evidence do you have that suggests your claims are true?
What I am "claiming for myself" is simply claiming what Christ predicted for all those who believe in Him and receive the Spirit. There is nothing privileged or elite about it in the sense that the same enjoyment could be yours as well, if you believed into Christ.
Yes, how do you claim Jesus affects you and what evidence is there that your claim is true?
Transformation, sanctification in my thinking, speaking, reactions over the years.
His indwelling touches more and more areas of my life. By faith we allow this One to make His home in our hearts.
That involves conformity to Himself.
Do you see how adverse you are to saying "Lord Jesus, Come into my heart, Lord" ?
That is not only you with that fear of being changed. That is something else knowing that taking that step will change you.
I think you yourself know that if you turned your heart over to Jesus Christ you could not remain the same.