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@fmf saidAll logic eventually becomes circular. Everything can be boiled down to a tautology.
The fundamental things are whether the "perfect morality" sonship touts is morally coherent and whether it can be explained without a kind of circular logic.
Another fundamental thing is whether sonship can provide any evidence to back his repeated claims about how this supernatural being with "perfect morality" he believes in affects his own morality.
sonship deflects an ...[text shortened]... umption of people who believe the same things as you do - does not address "the fundamental things".
Everything hinges on his belief in God.
Everything that you say hinges on your disbelief in God.
The reasons for something further down are always traced back to a more basic truth further up.
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@philokalia saidBut you cut off the definition! Leaving out a piece of the definition changes its meaning. It moves the goalposts. It makes it easier to [undeservedly] apply that label to people.
I use it in this sense:noun someone who rejects all theories of morality or religious belief
Found here
https://www.wordnik.com/words/nihilist
But I have stated before how I use it in the sense that many people are "pragmatic utilitarians," and thus nihilists. Fr. Seraphim Rose equates these two concepts.
It's also something that I apply to ...[text shortened]... [/i]
And I will stop when FMF chooses to respect the lexicon that Christians use for themselves.
If the mis-use is deliberate gamesmanship, then please excuse my disregarding that tactic. I prefer to take people at their word.
@bigdoggproblem saidIt's a standard operating procedure for religionists here. Philokalia is the umpteenth Christian poster to do it.
But you cut off the definition! Leaving out a piece of the definition changes its meaning. It moves the goalposts. It makes it easier to [undeservedly] apply that label to people.
If the mis-use is deliberate gamesmanship, then please excuse my disregarding that tactic. I prefer to take people at their word.
@fmf saidI think theists hone these tactics in discussions amongst only themselves, then are utterly unprepared when they're countered by skeptics.
It's a standard operating procedure for religionists here. Philokalia is the umpteenth Christian poster to do it.
@philokalia saidWhy then does he have no evidence to support his repeated claims that, here on this forum, "Jesus is flowing through" him and that he is "becoming more like Jesus"?
Everything hinges on his belief in God.
If everything "hinges on" it, why can he not point to anything about himself to substantiate his self-aggrandizing claims?
sonship is, after all, claiming that he is becoming like a person he believes was "the highest manifestation of moral goodness".
And he is claiming that a person he believes was "the highest manifestation of moral goodness" is "flowing through" him here in this community.
Big "hinge". Big "claims". No evidence.
@philokalia saidI am not asking you to use language that Christians use for themselves. I am suggesting that, if you are talking to a non-believer, you use language for talking to a non-believer.
And I will stop when FMF chooses to respect the lexicon that Christians use for themselves.
I don't reject moral principle. I don't think life is meaningless.
Perhaps you should save your loaded/religious use of the word "nihilist" for when you Christians talk amongst themselves?
@philokalia said"Pejoratives"?
It's also something that I apply to FMF because he likes to come up with pejoratives for people who believe in hell...
@philokalia saidMy goal is to ascertain sonship's answers to these questions which arise authentically and germanely out of this thread's content and the relevance of this thread to other conversations that we have had.
What's yoru goal in this interrogation?
But I see what you were trying to do by calling it an "interrogation".
Here are the questions again [they were addressed to sonship, if you feel they don't apply to you or to what you claim/believe about yourself, so be it, don't worry]:
As a moral agent, how does your belief in Jesus' "perfect morality" and your belief that he is "the highest manifestation of moral goodness" affect you or affect your moral behaviour?
I know you believe that if you are "bad" you will be "forgiven" and will be "saved", and that you believe that 'being hung out in chains, on fire, endless woe etc.' awaits me [for being "bad" and - perhaps more importantly - for not believing the theology that claims I am "forgiven"].
But put that religionist doctrine aside a moment for the purposes of discussing your belief that Jesus is "the highest manifestation of moral goodness".
How does that affect the moral decisions you make, the moral actions you take, and the moral stances you take - in your interactions with others?
Can you cite concrete, practical, specific examples of how Jesus' supposed "perfect morality" affects your behaviour as a moral agent?
@bigdoggproblem saidActually, I didn't cut the definition at all.
But you cut off the definition! Leaving out a piece of the definition changes its meaning. It moves the goalposts. It makes it easier to [undeservedly] apply that label to people.
If the mis-use is deliberate gamesmanship, then please excuse my disregarding that tactic. I prefer to take people at their word.
It's toward the bottom of the page.
@fmf saidSo what is the meaning of life..?
I am not asking you to use language that Christians use for themselves. I am suggesting that, if you are talking to a non-believer, you use language for talking to a non-believer.
I don't reject moral principle. I don't think life is meaningless.
Perhaps you should save your loaded/religious use of the word "nihilist" for when you Christians talk amongst themselves?
How can there be a meaning of life without God?
Are you now fully on board with the Deism you announced yoursef moving towards?
@philokalia saidThere have been maybe dozens of threads that have gone into this in one way or other in the last year to which both you and I have contributed. I refer you to that.
So what is the meaning of life..?
How can there be a meaning of life without God?
I also remember a conversation between you and me that was specifically about my perspective on the meaning of life and how there can be a meaning of life without having a God figure or aspiring to everlasting life. I refer you to that.
@philokalia saidGo take a look at that thread if your interest is genuine.
Are you now fully on board with the Deism you announced yoursef moving towards?
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My goal is to ascertain sonship's answers to these questions which arise authentically and germanely out of this thread's content and the relevance of this thread to other conversations that we have had.
My my side it seems that you goal is to always show you can say something else.
"I have another question. And I have another questions. And now I have another comment. And I can go on like this forever always having something else as a question or problem."
But I see what you were trying to do by calling it an "interrogation".
Whatever. You want to show that you will always have another objection waiting. And another one. And now another question ?
As a moral agent, how does your belief in Jesus' "perfect morality" and your belief that he is "the highest manifestation of moral goodness" affect you or affect your moral behaviour?
Why don't you be honest and add to, after "behavior" - "that will come up to the standard of MY approval."
For all you are likely to do if one testifies how living in with Christ has changed his life, is to raise perpetual accusations, doubts, skeptical opinions about it.
Is any Christian likely to wait for your approval ? "Yes, I see that Christ has wrought that change in your life."
I know I am not what I use to be.
I also know I am not fully everything I should be.
So getting into a perpetual argument with you about this is not fruitful.
You'll see to it that the bar of your approval will be remain movable and unattainable.
Asking the question though - looks good, like you are really interested.
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I know you believe that if you are "bad" you will be "forgiven" and will be "saved", and that you believe that 'being hung out in chains, on fire, endless woe etc.' awaits me [for being "bad" and - perhaps more importantly - for not believing the theology that claims I am "forgiven"].
Many people when they turned their lives over to Christ were, in fact, not contemplating the next age. They reached out their hand to the Savior for very practical salvation in the nitty gritty of life's knots here and now.
One thing Christ does for me is help me to stop living in the past, rehashing old prejudices and keeping alive old biases.
Some people can remain for years in old accusations, revizing them again and again because it just feels SO GOOD to keep these grudges fresh.
Christ is wonderful for causing everyday to be a new day.
"His mercies are fresh every morning." (Lam. 3:23)
But put that religionist doctrine aside a moment for the purposes of discussing your belief that Jesus is "the highest manifestation of moral goodness".
Why should doctrine be put aside?
Doctrine is not a dirty word. We can have both our personal testimony and a truth doctrine too.
You timidly inched up towards a doctrine of Deism awhile back.
"Less doctrine then thou" has not been your strongest characteristic.
How does that affect the moral decisions you make, the moral actions you take, and the moral stances you take - in your interactions with others?
You learn to let Him guide you with something like the index of His eyes, the seeming expression on His face deep in your spirit. You walk so as the maintain the sense of life and peace. The operative word there is learn. Walking in the Spirit is a life long learning process that continues throughout ones whole life until he sees the Lord.
Christ effects more so how one reacts then how one acts. Let me put it this way, what I have passed through with people, had I anticipated such circumstances long ago, I would never have chosen them. In His curriculum He sovereignly arranges things for me to go through in terms of serving others.
You are kind of asking us to brag. I would be willing for you to live with me for a season and just observe.
Still that is no guarantee your skepticism would be erased.
A crowd of people saw NO righteousness in Christ on that day they cried out for His crucifixion.
We have no guarantee of your approval of Christ living in us when smarter men then you saw none in Christ Himself, and clamored for His death.
I mean if you're waiting to complain "I don't see it" that is not a cause of discouragement to the disciple of Jesus.