Good men or God-men

@sonship said
His words. His actions. His life. His final victory over death.

His words. His actions. His life.

I have read the carefully constructed story written decades after his death by people who didn't meet him but who wanted to use a narrative about him to kick start a 'new' religion.

His final victory over death.

"Victory"?

How was being executed by the Romans an example of "perfect morality"?

@sonship said
He is righteous with a radiant splendor unmatched by anyone else.

For example?

@sonship said
More consciences have been touched by the words of Jesus then any other human being, I would wager.
Possibly a second runner up would be Confucius.

As a moral agent, how does your belief in Jesus' "perfect morality" and your belief that he is "the highest manifestation of moral goodness" affect you or affect your moral behaviour?

I know you believe that if you are "bad" you will be "forgiven" and will be "saved", and that you believe that 'being hung out in chains, on fire, endless woe etc.' awaits me [for being "bad" and - perhaps more importantly - for not believing the theology that claims I am "forgiven"].

But put that religionist doctrine aside a moment for the purposes of discussing your belief that Jesus is "the highest manifestation of moral goodness".

How does that affect the moral decisions you make, the moral actions you take, and the moral stances you take - in your interactions with others?

Can you cite concrete, practical, specific examples of how Jesus' supposed "perfect morality" affects your behaviour as a moral agent?

@fmf said
More assertions. Morality is a set of norms and rules and inhibitions etc. that govern the interactions of human beings in their communal living. Here you are making assertions about dogs and your own God figure and, furthermore, making an assertion [i.e. a calculation] about something that you admit you cannot calculate.

See, this is what we would expect from a nihilist like FMF:

He believes that morality is just conventionality.

Yet, of course, if you do not agree with his set of conventionalities about LGBTQ or women, you are a homophobe and a sexist. If you do not agree with his moral conventions on Islam and posture harder, you are Islamophobic, I reckon.

Moral nihilists like this are amorphous thinkers... When it benefits them to believe in nothing, they believe in nothing, and you are a bigot for believing in something. When it benefits them to posture strong, they posture strong, and you are a bigot if you criticize them for doing it.

And HERE we have FMF trying to now make it about the absolute most fundamental thing in the world... you have to now talk about hwo God is absolutely real or you are just making assertions.

Every discussion has to begin with you proving God to FMF.

@fmf said
As a moral agent, how does your belief in Jesus' "perfect morality" and your belief that he is "the highest manifestation of moral goodness" affect you or affect your moral behaviour?

I know you believe that if you are "bad" you will be "forgiven" and will be "saved", and that you believe that 'being hung out in chains, on fire, endless woe etc.' awaits me [for being "bad" an ...[text shortened]... specific examples of how Jesus' supposed "perfect morality" affects your behaviour as a moral agent?

What's yoru goal in this interrogation?

Do you want to say Sonship is a hypocrite?

Do you want to say all of us are hypcorites?

Or is this just aimless badgering -- as per usual..?

@philokalia said
See, this is what we would expect from a nihilist like FMF:

He believes that morality is just conventionality.

Yet, of course, if you do not agree with his set of conventionalities about LGBTQ or women, you are a homophobe and a sexist. If you do not agree with his moral conventions on Islam and posture harder, you are Islamophobic, I reckon.

Moral nihilists li ...[text shortened]... or you are just making assertions.[/i]

Every discussion has to begin with you proving God to FMF.

If by "nihilist" you mean that I am not religious and I don't rely on a belief in supernatural causality to frame my moral outlook, then that's OK because it's true I am not religious. If by "nihilist" you mean I reject all religious and moral principles and that I believe that life is meaningless, then you are mistaken.

@philokalia said
What's yoru goal in this interrogation?

Do you want to say Sonship is a hypocrite?

Do you want to say all of us are hypcorites?

Or is this just aimless badgering -- as per usual..?

You don't have to answer my questions if you don't want to.

@philokalia said
Yet, of course, if you do not agree with his set of conventionalities about LGBTQ or women, you are a homophobe and a sexist. If you do not agree with his moral conventions on Islam and posture harder, you are Islamophobic, I reckon.

What conversations have we had about homosexuality or Islam that cause you to make these specific assertions about me? You're making stuff up and engaging that instead of engaging what I am saying.

@philokalia said
And HERE we have FMF trying to now make it about the absolute most fundamental thing in the world... you have to now talk about hwo God is absolutely real or you are just making assertions.

The fundamental things are whether the "perfect morality" sonship touts is morally coherent and whether it can be explained without a kind of circular logic.

Another fundamental thing is whether sonship can provide any evidence to back his repeated claims about how this supernatural being with "perfect morality" he believes in affects his own morality.

sonship deflects and dodges.

You seem to be doing the same thing.

Calling me a "nihilist" - for the consumption of people who believe the same things as you do - does not address "the fundamental things".

@fmf said
The fundamental things are whether the "perfect morality" sonship touts is morally coherent and whether it can be explained without a kind of circular logic, and another fundamental thing is whether sonship can provide any evidence to back his repeated claims about how this supernatural being with "perfect morality" he believes in affects his own morality. sonship deflects and do ...[text shortened]... umption of people who believe the same things as you do - does not address "the fundamental things".

noun
noun: nihilist; plural noun: nihilists

a person who believes that life is meaningless and rejects all religious and moral principles.

I should think there are very few people who actually meet this definition. Perhaps Sociopaths.

@bigdoggproblem said
noun
noun: nihilist; plural noun: nihilists

a person who believes that life is meaningless and rejects all religious and moral principles.

I should think there are very few people who actually meet this definition. Perhaps Sociopaths.

I think "nihilist" for Philokalia means 'not religious'.

@fmf said
I think "nihilist" for Philokalia means 'not religious'.

It may be so. The usual "if I didn't believe in God, I would have no morals whatsoever" trope.

@fmf said
If by "nihilist" you mean that I am not religious and I don't rely on a belief in supernatural causality to frame my moral outlook, then that's OK because it's true I am not religious. If by "nihilist" you mean I reject all religious and moral principles and that I believe that life is meaningless, then you are mistaken.

I mean the second.

So, tell me, then, if you believe that there are objectively right morals and a meanign of life... What is it?

OR will you back out of it here?

@philokalia said
I mean the second.

So, tell me, then, if you believe that there are objectively right morals and a meanign of life... What is it?

OR will you back out of it here?

Yes, I dropped an f-bomb on your head in another thread, instead of engaging your arguments.

Probably what I should have said, in retrospect, is that, with all due respect, your opinions seemed formed by up-front prejudice, with ill-considered reasoning filled in as a backstop for them.

@bigdoggproblem said
noun
noun: nihilist; plural noun: nihilists

a person who believes that life is meaningless and rejects all religious and moral principles.

I should think there are very few people who actually meet this definition. Perhaps Sociopaths.

I use it in this sense:

noun someone who rejects all theories of morality or religious belief

Found here

https://www.wordnik.com/words/nihilist

But I have stated before how I use it in the sense that many people are "pragmatic utilitarians," and thus nihilists. Fr. Seraphim Rose equates these two concepts.

It's also something that I apply to FMF because he likes to come up with pejoratives for people who believe in hell, and absolutely refuses to budge on calling people by names that they call their own doctrines.[/b]

So, this is the just treatment of a man by his own standards in a way that annoys him so that he will hopefully learn to not do that.

[i]I will not refer to you as a nihilist, BDP.

And I will stop when FMF chooses to respect the lexicon that Christians use for themselves.