@fmf saidAre the rules fixed so he cannot change them? Is he altering his life to accommodate them instead of making up his own rules as he sees fit, as he wills? You asked this type of thing before while bringing up other religions, too, didn't you?
KellyJay, if someone ~ let's call him Nigel ~ was so impressed by Jordan Peterson's "12 Rules for Life" that he tried to abide by them and incorporated the ideas into his moral compass, do you think that would necessarily make Nigel's "fixed direction" objective and "not internal" and "the Truth" [capital letter intentional] and a "standard" and "measuring tool" and all-round "real as rocks" better than the moral compasses of people who hadn't read the "12 Rules for Life"?
@kellyjay saidIt's up to you [i.e. Nigel] what you do with Jordan Peterson's "12 Rules for Life". It's just subjective ~ it's YOUR moral compass, after all, no one else's.
Are the rules fixed so he cannot change them? Is he altering his life to accommodate them instead of making up his own rules as he sees fit, as he wills?
You can devote yourself to them, to Peterson, to the book, to the 12 rules, if you want. The book exists; it's there; it isn't "altering"; you don't need to/want to "change" it.
You can even reject all other input and stimulus, having read it and absorbed it, if you want to. It's up to you.
@kellyjay saidThere are theist people like you ~ appealing to their own opinions - and to their own certainties - about more or less the same "fixed direction" that you say your belief in supernatural causality gives you ~ and they are on opposing sides - from you - of all these issues and many more besides.
It plays out in numerous ways, racial purity, did you get vaccinated, those X people are so lazy, good for nothing, and on and on.
@fmf saidOf course, it is up to you; who else would it be up to? You are choosing to follow something, someone, or simply carrying out your whims? For crying out loud, seriously, we choose NOT denying that but where do we understand right from wrong, good and evil defined, somewhere outside of us, or what makes us happy? Today in many liberal cities in the US, they are not prosecuting people for stealing and many other things, and now that crime is on the rise, they are wondering why. Our baser instincts are not lovely things, we are very self-centered, and without guides, we can justify anything with a bit of push here or there. Even saying I follow the Bible if I am picking and choosing only those that make me feel good about my desires, I am not following the Bible; I would be making the Bible fit me.
It's up to you [i.e. Nigel] what you do with Jordan Peterson's "12 Rules for Life". It's just subjective ~ it's YOUR moral compass, after all, no one else's.
You can devote yourself to them, to Peterson, to the book, to the 12 rules, if you want. The book exists; it's there; it isn't "altering"; you don't need to/want to "change" it.
You can even reject all other input and stimulus, having read it and absorbed it, if you want to. It's up to you.
@kellyjay saidI would not describe my moral compass as "simply" a set of whims that I find myself "carrying out". If that's how you would be without your preoccupation with supernatural things [that just so happen to appeal to your imagination], and if all that supposedly "objective" stuff reduces the excesses of your self-confessed "evil" nature, then good for you. Good for those around you.
Of course, it is up to you; who else would it be up to? You are choosing to follow something, someone, or simply carrying out your whims?
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@kellyjay saidI have already explained [and you made no attempt to rebut or refute it] where our sense of telling right from wrong, both yours and mine, come from ~ so what's with this disingenuous question? Maybe the "answer" was in one of my posts that you did not understand, did not reply to, or just blanked out.
For crying out loud, seriously, we choose NOT denying that but where do we understand right from wrong, good and evil defined, somewhere outside of us, or what makes us happy?
@kellyjay saidIf the Bible is the only thing preventing you from being prosecuted for "stealing and many other things" and "justifying anything" and exhibiting the "not lovely... baser instincts" that you have, then so be it. Good for you. And good for all the people you might run into. Stick to your Bible.
Today in many liberal cities in the US, they are not prosecuting people for stealing and many other things, and now that crime is on the rise, they are wondering why. Our baser instincts are not lovely things, we are very self-centered, and without guides, we can justify anything with a bit of push here or there.
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@fmf saidIt would be best to concern yourself with the rule giver, not nature and nurture, which can be defined any way the definer would like to see them defined. Rules come down by authority, rejecting authority by only following this rule and not that one, this law and not that one, put us in a wrong place. If we are the sole authority on all we say and do, then nothing is forbidden; nothing is really out of bounds; it is all subjective. If there are laws and rules we cannot alter to suit us, then those come from something much higher in authority than we are.
If the Bible is the only thing preventing you from being prosecuted for "stealing and many other things" and "justifying anything" and exhibiting the "not lovely... baser instincts" that you have, then so be it. Good for you. And good for all the people you might run into. Stick to your Bible.
If you believe it is all subjective, why do you and others go after other posters for wrongdoing if there are no such things as wrongdoing? We are, after all, doing what we think; who are you to condemn someone else? By condemning others you are saying to them they are acting in ways that they should know better than to do.
@kellyjay saidI don't believe in the "rule giver" you describe, so that's a philosophical cul-de-sac. So, "nature and nurture" is the most plausible analysis.
It would be best to concern yourself with the rule giver, not nature and nurture, which can be defined any way the definer would like to see them defined.
I am open to the possibility that a creator entity is responsible for my consciousness and my "nature" which enables my "nurture" to construct a moral compass so that my conscience can operate.
Maybe there is a creator entity that wired me with morality ~ "wrote" it in my "heart", perhaps. That would mean my "nature and nurture" analysis still makes sense.
Your talk of "the rule giver" and the Bible, meanwhile, just sounds like the superstitious counterpart of retail politics.
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@kellyjay saidIf you are talking about your personal God figure, like I said, chalk it up to "nurture".
Rules come down by authority, rejecting authority by only following this rule and not that one, this law and not that one, put us in a wrong place.
"Rules" "come down" from your parents, and their parents before them, back in time, and then your siblings, your spouse and your family, even your own children, from your schools, your church and your religion, your philosophy and your political ideology, and then your neighbours, your community, it "comes down" from your culture, from your nation's history, and from your local and national laws.
These "rules" then govern you from within. Blackboard. The "nurture" column. Piece of chalk.
@kellyjay saidWhat "wrongdoing" by posters are you talking about?
If you believe it is all subjective, why do you and others go after other posters for wrongdoing if there are no such things as wrongdoing?
I will "go after" wrongdoing if my moral compass detects it, and if it impinges on me or overlaps with me in a way that warrants interaction.
You are free to do the same. You can use the Bible to "go after "wrongdoers" if you want. It's up to you.
Maybe their moral compasses are lacking? The way you can decide this is to use your moral compass.
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@kellyjay saidI don't think this is how moral compasses work in non-sociopathic people.
If we are the sole authority on all we say and do, then nothing is forbidden; nothing is really out of bounds; it is all subjective.
Indeed, the people apparently populating your world seem to be mere cardboard cutouts [and not free moral agents], with maybe actual humans as the Christians [as long as they are Christians you approve of and recognize].
But I will indulge you anyway.
If the only thing that prevents you from believing that "nothing is forbidden" and that "nothing is really out of bounds" is the Bible, then, as I have said time and time again, so be it /good for you / gosh, the people around you are fortunate.