heaven vs. hell

Originally posted by aardvarkhome
Thank you for dismissing my existance. I'll fet for days.

It was a question that you seem to want to avoid answering, regardless of what I think.

And do you think I lay awake concerned that you call me a sanctimonious fool?

I did not dismiss your existence. I asked you a question whether you thought your life had meaning if there is no God.

My opinion was that neither your life or my life means anything if God does not exist.

So if you thought of it as my dismissal of your meaning it would have been of mine and everyone else's also, if there is no God.

The interesting thing about eternal perdition that I see in the Bible is that no one seems confined to stay there.

I see no wall or fence. I think that the pain of stepping out of damnation into the light of truth would be more painful then the torments of punishment.

I mean for the damned to step out of the punishment into the light of seeing Who they have rejected and what love they have spurned and what mercy they have trampled unbelievingly under their feet ... These would probably be the greater regrets.

In this regard eternal punishment is the ultimate escape. The conscience does not have to confront eternal love and redemption and turn to self hate at what one has spurned.

But the agony of stepping out of the fire into the light of the sacrificial love of Christ, and to know that for no good reason, one has rejected Christ's redemption ... I'm sure that would keep the lost prefering to be occupied with their pains.

In your question "but whether or not you're worth a damn to begin with" you show your intolerance..

Whether or not god exists I know that every person is my brother and has an unique value. I know that whether they believe the same as me or not I must respect and value them.

You seem happy to damn people without ever meeting or knowing them. So much for christian love.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Hell was translated from several different words with different
meanings so you'd have to more specific in what you mean by
hell, but if it is the lake of fire, God made it.
Kelly

what other kinds of hell is there?

Originally posted by jaywill
The interesting thing about eternal perdition that I see in the Bible is that no one seems confined to stay there.

I see no wall or fence. I think that the pain of stepping out of damnation into the light of truth would be more painful then the torments of punishment.

I mean for the damned to step out of the punishment into the light of seeing Who th ...[text shortened]... 's redemption ... I'm sure that would keep the lost prefering to be occupied with their pains.

You sure do speculate a lot. Why don't you use that crazy imagination for something more useful?

Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
who made hell, God or Lucifer?

Human beings invented hell to scare people into believing illogical theologies.

Originally posted by jaywill
I have not really answered your question. That is who made hell.

I told you that Hell or Hades is the realm of the immaterial part of man when physical death occurs.

As a holding place, as a temporary place to await the resurrection of the physical body, I think that we should consider that this realm was created by God.

Lucifer is the Latan ...[text shortened]... nd how I understand the matter to be revealed in the Bible, which I regard as the word of God.

There is only one reference to “Lucifer” (Day Star) in the Hebrew Scriptures—

> Isaiah 14:12. How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! (NRSV)

Heilel, here translated as “Day Star,” and as “Lucifer” in the KJV (and also as “morning star” ), means brightness (from halal, to shine, to be bright or splendid) and apparently could refer to Venus, the day or morning “star.” The Hebrew word is related to halel, which means to praise (as in halelu Yah!), to celebrate, to cause to shine, to make light; with different vowel-pointing, the same root can mean to be foolish, insolent or mad, to rave.

Since the poem in Isaiah in which the reference appears is a “song of scorn over the king of Babylon” (JPS), the most straightforward reading is that that is to whom the poetic reference applies. It is in later (non-Biblical) traditions that the “Day Star” becomes conflated with Satan as a fallen angel.

The Greek equivalent is translated as “morning star” in the following verses of the NT:

NRS 2 Peter 1:19 So we have the prophetic message more fully confirmed. You will do well to be attentive to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

NRS Revelation 2:28 even as I also received authority from my Father. To the one who conquers I will also give the morning star.

NRS Revelation 22:16 "It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
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Satan in the Hebrew Scriptures

There are 18 mentions of Satan qua Satan in the Hebrew Scriptures (NRSV), all but three of them in the first two chapters of Job, where Satan acts against Job with God’s consent, in order to test Job’s righteousness.

In First Chronicles 21:1 it says: “Satan stood up against Israel, and incited David to count the people of Israel.” This is interesting, because in 2 Samuel 24:1, in what appears to be a reference to the same event, it says: “Again the anger of YHVH was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go, count the people of Israel and Judah.” (my italics) According to my one study Bible, “Samuel and Kings served as the major source for the Chronicler, though his copy of these books differed in significant ways from the text as we now have it in the Hebrew Bible.” (The Harper-Collins Study Bible, New Revised Standard Version)

The other two references are in Zechariah 3:1 & 2. In this case, Satan stands as the “accuser” (as shatan here is translated by the Jewish Publication Society (JPS, 1985)* of Joshua the priest. An angel of YHVH rebukes Satan before he can even speak an accusation against Joshua.

The Hebrew word shatan appears as “adversary” in the following 8 verses. In most cases, the reference is to a human adversary.

Num. 22:22—an angel of YHVH stands in Balaam’s way as an adversary.
Num. 22:32—same angel as verse 22.
1 Sam. 29:4—the Philistines want to send David away lest he become an adversary to them.
2 Sam. 19:22—David, referring to the sons of Zeruiah.
1 Ki. 5:4—Solomon in a time of peace, facing “neither adversary nor misfortune.”
1 Ki. 11:14—Hadad the Edomite, raised up by YHVH as an adversary to Solomon.
1 Ki. 11:23—Rezon, son of Eliada, raised up as adversary to Solomon.
1 Ki. 11:25—Rezon again.

Other Hebrew words are sometimes translated as adversary, foe or opponent.

In psalm 109:6, shatan is translated as “accuser;” in verses 20 and 29 it is plural shat’nai: “accusers.” In psalm 71:13, the plural also appears.

All in all, shatan appears in the Hebrew Scriptures about 30 times; in about 12 of those cases, it refers to a human adversary; twice it is the role assumed by an angel of YHVH; and once it appears to be an editing replacement for the anger of YHVH. [The search was done in NRSV, and there may be a slightly different number in another translation—i.e., I might have missed another word that is used to translate shatan.]

Originally posted by vistesd
There is only one reference to “Lucifer” (Day Star) in the Hebrew Scriptures—

> Isaiah 14:12. How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! (NRSV)

Heilel, here translated as “Day Star,” and as “Lucifer” in the KJV (and also as “morning star” ), means brightness (from ...[text shortened]... another translation—i.e., I might have missed another word that is used to translate shatan.]

so do people just translate it any way the want to? it seems easy to distort. nobody has still answered my question of who made hell.

Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
so do people just translate it any way the want to? it seems easy to distort. nobody has still answered my question of who made hell.

If God is truely omniscient and omnipotent then he made it, even if only by proxy.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
If God is truely omniscient and omnipotent then he made it, even if only by proxy.

somebody told me what happened was satan was cast out of heaven, satan made hell for himself, god allowed people to choose to go with satan if they wanted to. i just wanted to confirm whether that was true because it doesnt sound right.

Originally posted by jaywill
I did not dismiss your existence. I asked you a question whether you thought your life had meaning if there is no God.

My opinion was that neither your life or my life means anything if God does not exist.

So if you thought of it as my dismissal of your meaning it would have been of mine and everyone else's also, if there is no God.

It's very sad that you require some divine creator to give meaning to your life - does not your life give meaning enough to itself - your family, your friends, your job and your hobbies? The people who touch your life, and the people who's lives you touch. Are these things not enough to give meaning to your existance? If not, then I'd say that your faith in Gob has robbed you of a true perspective on life. Likewise, if you defer living your life to follow convention upon the false promise of an "afterlife" then you've only robbed yourself.

Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
somebody told me what happened was satan was cast out of heaven, satan made hell for himself, god allowed people to choose to go with satan if they wanted to. i just wanted to confirm whether that was true because it doesnt sound right.

If Gob is omniscient and omnipotent, it means that he knows all the decisions that will ever be made, before even the creation of the universe, and he chose to make it that way. For example, by Christian rules, I'll be sent to Hell, because I don't believe. The thing is, God knew I wouldn't believe, even before He created me. He could have created me differently, so I would believe, and he wouldn't need to send me to Hell. No decision I can make can change what Gob already knew, and what my fate will be. Likewise, before Gob created anything, He knew Lucifer would betray him, and that Lucifer would become the devil. God knew all this, and made it happen anyway.

Originally posted by jaywill
The question I have is not whether you will be damned but whether or not you're worth a damn to begin with.

Do you think your existence has any meaning if there is no God?

I don't.

Gob obviously did - or He wouldn't have created aardvark. Are you so stupid and beligerent to believe that you know better than Gob?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
It's very sad that you require some divine creator to give meaning to your life - does not your life give meaning enough to itself - your family, your friends, your job and your hobbies? The people who touch your life, and the people who's lives you touch. Are these things not enough to give meaning to your existance? If not, then I'd say that your f ...[text shortened]... llow convention upon the false promise of an "afterlife" then you've only robbed yourself.

You mentioned this term "afterlife". Did I say anything about "afterlife?"

I mentioned life period. I said nothing about "afterlife".

Now to your first point of your sadness on my behalf because God has robbed me of meaning. Well, there is one entire book of the Bible called Ecclesiates. This writer had not only one lovely wife but 600 wives. Plus them he had 300 concubine girlfriends. Plus these he had an abundance of real world class wisdom. His name was Solomon. He had great riches. The many proverbs and the songs suggest to me that he was very creative, a poet, perhaps a composer or songwriter at least. Wives, riches, family, art, a kingdom, and even lots of religion.

In spite of all that Solomon had attained toward the end of his days he declared "Vanity of vanities. All is vanity." The whole book of Ecclesiates is dedicated to this one complaint of Solomon. In the end as death encroached upon him he felt that it was all vanity and chasing after the wind.

If you think that this is Western thought you might find much of the same idea in Buddhist ideas about the futility and illusion of human life. Yes one does have enough to keep him occupied for the moment. But Solomon said that God had put eternity into man's heart.

There is something man longs for which can only be satisfied by the Person of God Himself. So there is for me a hollowness of all things ultimately without Christ Himself as my life. And compared to Christ Himself I would count all things as vain.

One rich monarch died uttering these words "All my possessions, for a moment of time." Eventually, she only desired a moment more of time, perhaps to be reconciled to God. I don't know.

Alexander the Great conquered the known world. I heard that he died of alchohol drinking. I heard that he requested that when they placed him in the coffin that they would let his arms extend outside of the box. This he supposedly did to show that he felt that he died emptyhanded. He felt that in the end he really had nothing. He drank himself to death to ease his inner sense of vanity.

So, I need the love of Christ and His bringing me into oneness with the life of the eternal God. I am happy to speak for myself. But I think that without the love of Christ, nothing in the way of relationships or affairs or achievments can really fill the sense of meaning.

If you strongly disagree I accept that. But then the story with you is really not completed yet.

I like these words of the Apostle Paul:

" For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present not things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8:38,39)

There is nothing in all the universe that I could trade for "the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."