Originally posted by JS357Brokeback Mountain
Seeing six RJ posts in a row sets the bar pretty high. It makes me think of the movie line:
"I wish I knew how to quit you."
Shall we play name that movie? Clue: it is relevant.
Speaking of quitting, in a day or two I will be quitting the forums for some weeks, but I do not expect to successfully complete the 12-step program. Europe beckons.
Originally posted by jaywillBut if you are 'born into sin' then it is not 'your sinning' that is offending God.
I would not put it that way. I mean my whole existence is an offence to God? My sinning is an offense.
If you are born with characteristics that offend God (such as being gay) then your existence offends God, not your behaviour.
You're an Atheist. What do you care what is "an offense to God" ?
What crocodile tears are these ?
I don't care, nor did I claim to. What I talked about was your beliefs and whether or not they were horror stories.
To repeat, Christ, with His salvation has taken all the Horror out of it.
So its OK if daddy hates you so long as he is a forgiving daddy? Nope, the horror is still very much there.
But that all have sinned because of this sinning nature is made quite clear by God and His prophets and apostles.
The issue is not whether or not 'all have sinned' the issue is whether or not we are born into sin. ie are you a sinner by your very birth. If you died at 1 day old would God consider you a sinner? That you see innocent babies as sinners needing salvation is the one horror story. That you can't see the horror is the other horror story.
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Originally posted by twhitehead
But if you are 'born into sin' then it is not 'your sinning' that is offending God.
If you are born with characteristics that offend God (such as being gay) then your existence offends God, not your behaviour.
[b]You're an Atheist. What do you care what is "an offense to God" ?
What crocodile tears are these ?
I don't care, nor did I claim to ion is the one horror story. That you can't see the horror is the other horror story.[/b]
But if you are 'born into sin' then it is not 'your sinning' that is offending God.
I think the only point I want to make about this is that it is obvious that God so loved the world (John 3:16). Now He loved the world in that condition of being born in sin. So there exists in His heart separating the "us" from the sin and the sinning which we were born into.
He must then, have not regarded man as worth nothing from birth in the absolute sense you wish to imply. Paul makes the point that Christ died for us when we were enemies.
"For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we shall be saved in His life, having been reconciled" (Rom. 5:10)
In the state of being at enmity with God - enemies of God, Christ died in love for us to reconcile us to God.
God therefore intends to separate the fallen born sinner from that element which is offensive to His righteous being.
Many skeptics always look for some way to take some point of theology and drive it to some position of logical inconsistancy with the plenary message of God's salvation.
The problem the unbeliever has is when he refuses to submit to God's desire to separate him from that offensive matter. Maybe there is a kind of pouting in him that since he was born offensive to God, he therefore wants nothing to do with this God. Whatever the reasoning, quite a bit of space is given in the Bible to God wanting to put an infinite distance between the creature man whom He so loves and the sin into which he has been born.
If you are born with characteristics that offend God (such as being gay) then your existence offends God, not your behaviour.
This may be a fine point of philosophics that one could argue. It doesn't concern me because it is abundantly obvious (if the above is questionable) that nothing can separate the redeemed sinner from the love of God in Christ his Savior -
"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ ? ... For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom. 8:35a,38,39)
Once the theif, the murderer, the "bad" person, the "good" person, the "straight" person or "gay" person, or the sinner of any kind believes into Christ nothing can separate him or her from the love of God.
So our message is not about focusing on your sin.
It is not really about arguing over your sin.
It is for the sinner to believe into Christ. For certain God loved the sinner even when he was an enemy. Even before he was born, in our cases, Christ had already come and died and rose for us.
Born into the world a sinner - God so loved the world ...
And believing into Him, coming just as we are, nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Like Paul we too are persuaded.
Now if you refuse God extending to you His salvation and His own eternal life, however you fortify your refusal with good reasons, justifying as much as you can, why you turn your back to Christ, that will not have a good ending.
Whatever matter is the offense to God, you have decided that you will cling to that. Its destiny you will co-share. That is the decision the one has made who will not be reconciled to God.
You're an Atheist. What do you care what is "an offense to God" ?
What crocodile tears are these ?
I don't care, nor did I claim to. What I talked about was your beliefs and whether or not they were horror stories.
Any "horror" in my being born in whatever problem, is more than compensated for in Christ's love and work.
I reiterate, BEFORE I WAS BORN, provision was already made for my problem.
In the New Testament we do not have a God frantically running around after you were born wringing His hands as to how you can be saved. The gospel was already prepared. It was established before you even came into the world.
This is the spirit of the teaching of Jesus that all things are ready, just come to the feast.
"The kingdom of the heavens has become like a king who prepared a wedding feast for his son. And he sent his slaves to call those who had been called to the wedding feast, yet they would not come.
Again, he sent other slaves, saying, Tell those who have been called, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatted cattle have been slain, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding feast." (See Matt.22:1-14)
No. really see Matthew 22:1-14, I mean. All things were made ready by God. We were born however we were born. When we arrived on the scene God had already prepared this feast of a salvation.
The classic hymn says it well -
All things are ready," come to the feast!
Come for the table now is spread;
Ye famishing, ye weary, come,
And thou shalt be richly fed.
--- Hear the invitation,
--- Come, whosoever will;
--- Praise God for full salvation
--- For whosoever will.
"All things are ready," come to the feast!
Come for the door is open wide;
A place of honor is reserved
For you at the Master's side.
"All things are ready," come to the feast!
Come, while He waits to welcome thee;
Delay not while this day is thine,
Tomorrow may never be.
"All things are ready," come to the feast!
Leave every care and worldly strife;
Come, feast upon the Christ of God
And drink everlasting life.
[copied without permission, LSM Hymns #1330]
So its OK if daddy hates you so long as he is a forgiving daddy? Nope, the horror is still very much there.
That is not the Gospel. It is that God "so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone who believes into Him would not perish, but would have eternal life." .
Here, the world includes the people born into the human race. He "so loved" the fallen sinners.
This is not God so hated the world. This is that God so loved the world.
The issue is not whether or not 'all have sinned' the issue is whether or not we are born into sin. ie are you a sinner by your very birth. If you died at 1 day old would God consider you a sinner?
This is now back to the old old debate "who exactly will be saved?"
The number of times a talk about the Gospel gravitates back to this point of "What about this case? What about that case? What about this other situation? What about this unusual death? What about this mentally retarded person or that person born in the jungles of Tin Buc Three? What about this babt who died? What about this fetus?"
Your question is kind of a leaning back in this direction. In my earlier Christian life I always attempted to arm myself with defenses to prove that there was no possible unknown in the "system" of salvation.
I believe that there are some unknowns in the Bible. I can see reasons to go one way or another on the matter of babies.
One thing is clear. Whatever that baby's situation is, that is not your situation. And that is not my situation. Intellectually, it may be an interesting exercise to throw up against the gospel difficult exceptional circumstances to test how air tight the "system" is.
I am pretty sure that what you should consider is not what is that baby's situation. But you should consider before God what is your situation. You are not that baby. You are that full grown adult reasoning, rationalizing, procrastinating, excusing, arguing, and trying to assure yourself that you need nothing to do with God.
What I have tried to present to the readers of this post is that ALL THINGS were prepared by God for our salvation when we arrived in the world at birth. Now we can come to the feast. If we see the gracious offer we should simply come to all that has been already prepared in Jesus Christ.
Why rationalize and argue at the offer ?
That you see innocent babies as sinners needing salvation is the one horror story. That you can't see the horror is the other horror story.
I agree with Abraham, who challenged God to make sure the city of Sodom would be dealt with completely justly. He became convinced that God was fair. And I also.
"Far be it from You to do such a thing, to put to death the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked. Far be it from You!
Shall the Judge of all the earth not do justly ?" (Genesis 18:25)
Some may claim to have knowledge of the place of babies in God's plan. I think there are some unknowns. I agree with Abraham that the Judge of all the earth cannot fail to judge justly.
The real issue is what is your state of innocency ? What is your situation after hearing the invitation to be forgiven for your many sins, year after year. Are you still rationalizing to justify yourself with atheism ?
It is better to be justified in the finished work of the Son of God on behalf of the sinners in the world.
Originally posted by jaywillSuch a long post.But if you are 'born into sin' then it is not 'your sinning' that is offending God.
I think the only point I want to make about this is that it is obvious that God [b]so loved the world (John 3:16). Now He loved the world in that condition of being born in sin. So there exists in His heart separating the "us" from the sin and the s ...[text shortened]... on behalf of the sinners in the world.[/b]
You could've just written it this easily...BS
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Originally posted by jaywillI believe sonhouse does not have time for BS. He has a job. 😀
For any who would like to take the time - (both of you)
Greg Koukl's program [b]"Stand To Reason"
Discussing "Did Jesus Condemn Homosexuality ?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDmoB26ikQE&feature=related -- Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUyts1LhK4s -- Part 2[/b]
P.S. I believe nook7 and twhitehead and the other atheists and non-Christians are just ornery.
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Originally posted by jaywill- Challenge 'we are all stardust'. [Or, if that was his idea, change it to 'we all came from stardust' at least. 😛] The elements that comprise us came from the stars a long time ago. That doesn't mean we still are.
How would you have advized this Militant Atheist to respond to the questions he is being asked by the Christian ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBP1f92fezs&feature=relmfu
- He shouldn't have accepted the claim that relying on the uniformity of physical laws is a 'gamble'. [He realized he screwed up a question or so later, and was trying to take it back.] We know from experience that certain theories of physics are well-tested and reliable. We typically don't call assuming something with a very highly likely probability a 'gamble'.
- Definitely challenge the idea that everything is meaningless without some big sky daddy! When you hear a statement like, "Doomsday cults, arrogance and nastiness really is meaningless ultimately", ask them why. Would arrogant people seem less annoying just because there is no god? Would we stop cringing at ill-treatment of other people just because there is no one watching from above? Of course not. It's because these things have meaning to us, which is really the only relevant 'meaning' there is.
- Finally, don't ever let the theist know that you are annoyed or irritated by his questions. Learn to quell your emotional responses during such debates and focus on rational thought instead. Accept the idea that there are people who believe differently than you and stop getting so offended by it. Try to set a more thoughtful pace to the debate instead of mutual rapid-fire questions with expected instant answers.
- If you want a more civil debate with less name-calling and one-upsmanship, then lead by example. [I debate my parents on spirituality and it is only possible because we have all decided in advance that we will keep it civil. The debates are not worth wrecking relationships, which could easily happen if emotions take over. If I ever thought for a second that things were heading in that direction, I'd end the debate right there.]