Originally posted by micahchuYou are new here. You'd better read up some before you get yourself in in the game.
Hello all, I am new to this site, and have been enjoying reading the discussions here, although as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I am sorry to see that there are some mis-understandings about our beliefs here, so I will try to clarify some if I can.
What Menace says here is partly correct, but an oversimplification that becomes incorrect when stated that ...[text shortened]... duals who did not know and serve Jehovah, will get a future opportunity to gain God’s favor.
Like: Here the JW isn't much liked, unless you're not JW yourself. There are no middle ground. You either like JW and then you are a JW member, I've never heard any non-cultist like JW. Or you don't like JW. The culters themselves are either arrogant or ignorant, probably both.
If I was a JW-afficionado, I would be more humble. I would be an ambassador for the cult. Showing how it really is to be a member of the cult. Show with your own behaviour that you are neither arrogant, nor ignorant, but instead an open-minded pleasant one that happens to be a JW member. None has succeeded with this.
Good luck, yourself.
Originally posted by galveston75JWs are humans and make mistakes. Glad you admit that. So you cannot claim that the JW organisation is Gods organisation or that the JWs are guided by God.
The Witnesses have never claimed to be prophets so that would be an incorrect statement. But like any human on this planent misakes are made when there is insufficient knowledge or that God has not allowed the light of knowledge to shine brightly on a specific subject yet. So what you are referring to happened many decades ago and the misunderstandings o ...[text shortened]... and for the future and forget the past as it is the past. One who keeps looking back, stumbles.
Therefore the same flaw would be applicable to the JW doctrine and teachings. It could be incorrect and the JWs may have the wrong teachings. Do you admit that?
Originally posted by Rajk999So it's only some perfect human race that doesn't exist that could only be God's people? Come on Rajj.... That's getting silly now.
JWs are humans and make mistakes. Glad you admit that. So you cannot claim that the JW organisation is Gods organisation or that the JWs are guided by God.
Therefore the same flaw would be applicable to the JW doctrine and teachings. It could be incorrect and the JWs may have the wrong teachings. Do you admit that?
Originally posted by FabianFnasWe are actually glad to not be liked....Matt 24:9. That suites us fine...🙂
You are new here. You'd better read up some before you get yourself in in the game.
Like: Here the JW isn't much liked, unless you're not JW yourself. There are no middle ground. You either like JW and then you are a JW member, I've never heard any non-cultist like JW. Or you don't like JW. The culters themselves are either arrogant or ignorant, probab ...[text shortened]... t one that happens to be a JW member. None has succeeded with this.
Good luck, yourself.
Originally posted by Rajk999Rajk,
Mmmm .. fresh meat !!
So two questions :
1. Do you have any comment on the discussion concerning whether or not the JWs constitute THE ONLY TRUE RELIGION, and therefore the only religion by which one might have a chance to be part of the earthly paradise?
2. Why do the JWs insist on claiming that the 144,000 referred to in Revelation are not natur ...[text shortened]... f. Do you have anything new to add? What he said makes no sense so no need to repeat his points.
First, I will have a civil discussion with you, however I feel your "fresh meat" comment is flame bait, so please keep this type of comment out if you expect me to respond in the future.
To answer your questions:
1. The Bible is where I look for direction, and it is the only place that I believe has all the answers to my questions. What I have found in the bible is that there can only be one true religion, and a person can either accept that or not, but as Adam and Eve learned, a person must live with the consequences of rejecting God's direction that he has given us. As I said in my previous post, he will give everyone the opportunity to make their decision. It is not my place to say if he has given you or anyone else enough of an understanding of the issues to choose, but for me, I feel as did Joshua in Joshua 24:14, 15: 14 “And now fear Jehovah and serve him in faultlessness and in truth, and remove the gods that YOUR forefathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt, and serve Jehovah. 15 Now if it is bad in YOUR eyes to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom YOU will serve, whether the gods that YOUR forefathers who were on the other side of the River served or the gods of the Amorites in whose land YOU are dwelling. But as for me and my household, we shall serve Jehovah.”
That whole 24th chapter makes it pretty clear that there can be only one right way to serve God.
2. Galveston did correctly state that the fact that the listing of the tribes do not coincide between Numbers 1 and Revelation 7 points to it not being literal. This also goes along with Ephesians 2:11-13, 3:5,6 and Acts 15:14. These scriptures make it clear that these ones did not need to be fleshly Jews.
Originally posted by FabianFnasThanks for the welcome, yes I have been reading, and I can see that there are some individuals that seem outright hostile to us, but that is nothing I am not used to, I have some people slam the door in my face when I visit. On the other hand, I see far more people behave quite nice, and are willing to have quite the nice conversations, and I have both learned much, as well as shown many scriptural truths to people.
You are new here. You'd better read up some before you get yourself in in the game.
Like: Here the JW isn't much liked, unless you're not JW yourself. There are no middle ground. You either like JW and then you are a JW member, I've never heard any non-cultist like JW. Or you don't like JW. The culters themselves are either arrogant or ignorant, probab ...[text shortened]... t one that happens to be a JW member. None has succeeded with this.
Good luck, yourself.
I am curious though, you mention the word cult in describing us, why do you use that term to describe us, are you using the dictionary definition, so are against organized religion in general, or are you using the term in the Connotative sense that cults are negative?
Thanks again, M
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Originally posted by micahchuMicahchu , First you need to have a sense of humour on this forum otherwise the big guns will take you out and the killerwhales will eat you alive. Im just a small fry here so lighten up pal ... 😀
Rajk,
First, I will have a civil discussion with you, however I feel your "fresh meat" comment is flame bait, so please keep this type of comment out if you expect me to respond in the future.
To answer your questions:
1. The Bible is where I look for direction, and it is the only place that I believe has all the answers to my questions. What I ha Acts 15:14. These scriptures make it clear that these ones did not need to be fleshly Jews.
Well we differ from the start. I believe that one must look to JESUS CHRIST for direction. Not the whole Bible. Christ said that over and over. Salvation is gained by following Him, his example and his commandments. And the message of Christ and what he commanded is a complete message. There is no need to look elsewhere and be a Bible scholar to follow Christ. If you think anything is missing from what Christ said then please let me know.
The problem you will encounter if you follow the whole Bible is that you cannot possibly begin to follow the intricate laws and guidelines given there. Those were designed for the Jews (descendents of Jacob). If you are going to follow the whole Bible then you should follow the WHOLE Bible. Do you do that? I doubt it. Its impossible.
You are also taking Joshua 24 out of context. Those instructions were applicable to those who wanted to follow either the God of Israel or the idol gods of other people. You cannot use what Joshua said there to differentiate between the Jehovah Witnesses and other Christian faiths.
As for the 144,000, please explain why the 12 tribes have to co-incide with Numbers, and why if there are slight changes, does that give you the licence to claim that it is not literal. Is there a tribe of Reuben, and is he not the son of Jacob and did he not have jewish descendents ? Why is that not literal? Please explain.
Does the fact that there are also spiritual Jews eliminate completely the natural Jews - the descendents of Jacob? Were there not thousands of faithful from the time of Abraham, Issac and Jacob right on until the coming of Christ? Cannot all these faithful Jews be counted as part of the 144,000? To be honest your argument make no sense.
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Originally posted by micahchuThis might help. Here are some characteristics of cults:
Thanks for the welcome, yes I have been reading, and I can see that there are some individuals that seem outright hostile to us, but that is nothing I am not used to, I have some people slam the door in my face when I visit. On the other hand, I see far more people behave quite nice, and are willing to have quite the nice conversations, and I have both lea ...[text shortened]... , or are you using the term in the Connotative sense that cults are negative?
Thanks again, M
http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/uploads/CultCharacteristics.htm
I would say that the JW exhibit the following : 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13, 14
Just my opinion.
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1. The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.
2. The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
3. The group is preoccupied with making money.
4. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
5. Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
6. The leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act, and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, and so forth).
7. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity).
8. The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society.
9. The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations).
10. The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify means that members would have considered unethical before joining the group (for example: collecting money for bogus charities).
11. The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them.
12. Members' subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family and friends, and to give up personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining the group.
13. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group.
14. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
-Removed-Divegeester,
This also seems to be a bit of a misconception. Galviston correctly pointed out that only Jehovah can read peoples hearts to know if they have the faith required for salvation, as Hebrews 11:6 brings out: 6 "Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please [him] well, for he that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him." and Galations 2:16: "a man is declared righteous, not due to works of law, but only through faith toward Christ Jesus, even we have put our faith in Christ Jesus, that we may be declared righteous due to faith toward Christ, and not due to works of law, because due to works of law no flesh will be declared righteous."
So hence, there is no competition, or rat race of who can do more works. However, If you read the rest of Hebrews 11, you find examples of many individuals who are held as examples of faith, and I am sure you can find in the bible where this faith led them to perform many works. This is because as James said at James 2:26 "faith without works is dead"
Therefore, my faith moves me to go preach from door to door, just as I am sure your faith moves you to action.
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Originally posted by micahchuAre you implying that preaching door to door is the only, or best way to demonstrate your faith?
... Therefore, my faith moves me to go preach from door to door, just as I am sure your faith moves you to action.
Galveston sent a link which explained why the JWs are the only true religion. Does not that imply that other religions will not be part of the earthly paradise?
Originally posted by Rajk999Hummm Rajj. I don't see where not even one of these applys to the Witnesses. But go ahead and explain which ones do if you please..
This might help. Here are some characteristics of cults:
http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/uploads/CultCharacteristics.htm
I would say that the JW exhibit the following : 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13, 14
Just my opinion.
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1. The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to displa ...[text shortened]... 14. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.