Originally posted by galveston75
So the prsctice of homosexuality is ok or not?

Jesus never spoke against homosexuality nor taught to ostracize homosexuals.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Jesus never spoke against it.

But God did many times in the Bible and even destroyed 2 cities because of it. It would seem to me one would reason since Jesus said nothing on the subject then God's laws stands as is... Why would you think differently as it is an abhorent and disgusting practice to God.
"But God loves us all" is what I know your going to come back with and yes he does. The Bible says he wants all to attain to repentance and that would mean to stop purposely doing what he hates. If you don't stop what he hates then your life is in danger of his judgement just as was the case in those two cities.

Originally posted by galveston75
But God did many times in the Bible and even destroyed 2 cities because of it. It would seem to me one would reason since Jesus said nothing on the subject then God's laws stands as is... Why would you think differently as it is an abhorent and disgusting practice to God.
"But God loves us all" is what I know your going to come back with and yes he doe ...[text shortened]... hates then your life is in danger of his judgement just as was the case in those two cities.

Noticed you omitted "nor taught to ostracize homosexuals". I wonder why.

There's a wide gulf between what Jesus taught and what the Bible teaches on the whole. I think you recognize this in that you follow the teachings of Jesus rather than other teachings in the Bible when it comes to war. The JWs inconsistently don't treat homosexuality the same. The JWs also choose to ostracize homosexuals, but allow others who "purposely [do] what he hates". Another inconsistency in the JWs doctrine.

If you don't stop what he hates then your life is in danger of his judgement just as was the case in those two cities.

If that is the case, then that would be God's judgment. However the JWs make it their judgment.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Noticed you omitted "nor taught to ostracize homosexuals". I wonder why.

There's a wide gulf between what Jesus taught and what the Bible teaches on the whole. I think you recognize this in that you follow the teachings of Jesus rather than other teachings in the Bible when it comes to war. The JWs inconsistently don't treat homosexuality the same. The ...[text shortened]... is the case, then that would be God's judgment. However the JWs make it their judgment.

As usual your making no sence. The Bible ( God ) condems homosexuality in black and white and has never changed his mind unless you have some secret communication to him and he's a lier to the rest of us. But I know he's not a lier and does not contradict himself so it must be you that has things screwed up....
The act of homosexuality is completely condemnd by God and is in the same catagory as a murder.

What does the Bible say about homosexuality?
Rom. 1:24-27: “God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, that their bodies might be dishonored among them . . . God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error.”
1 Tim. 1:9-11: “Law is promulgated, not for a righteous man, but for persons lawless and unruly, ungodly and sinners, . . . fornicators, men who lie with males, . . . and whatever other thing is in opposition to the healthful teaching according to the glorious good news of the happy God.” (Compare Leviticus 20:13.)
Jude 7: “Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them, after they . . . [had] gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.” (The name Sodom has become the basis for the word “sodomy,” which usually designates a homosexual practice. Compare Genesis 19:4, 5, 24, 25.)

Originally posted by galveston75
But God did many times in the Bible and even destroyed 2 cities because of it. It would seem to me one would reason since Jesus said nothing on the subject then God's laws stands as is... Why would you think differently as it is an abhorent and disgusting practice to God.
"But God loves us all" is what I know your going to come back with and yes he doe hates then your life is in danger of his judgement just as was the case in those two cities.

To be homosexual and male is bad, but to be a homosexual and female is okay?
Why doesn't god have anything against lesbian love?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
To be homosexual and male is bad, but to be a homosexual and female is okay?
Why doesn't god have anything against lesbian love?

Romans 1:24-27 (American Standard Version)

24 Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves:

25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.


American Standard Version (ASV)

Originally posted by galveston75
Romans 1:24-27 (American Standard Version)

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature:

American Standard Version (ASV)

This is what StPaul writes. It's his opinion. God has nothing to do with this.

Where is the first place in the bible where homosexuality is mentionned. Does it say anything about lesbian women there? No, it doesn't.

Originally posted by galveston75
Sorry old buddy but your so wrong about Satan. Fooling ones like yourself into believeing he doesn't exist is one of his best weapons and it obviously works.

Present the case for Satan my good man.

Originally posted by utherpendragon
Care to name a religion NOT " made by men followed by men"?

Exactly, you've just made my point.

There is no divine element involved.

Originally posted by galveston75
Yes we are to love all humans. But that does not mean we approve of actions or life styles they may practice. The bible condemns the willful PRACTICE of sins. We've all inherited sinful tendances and do that daily but it's when one ignors God's laws against gross sins and commits them on purpose.

I'm no theologian but as I read it Christ's view would be that it's not your place to judge 'sinners' - that would be god's job. You're supposed to love 'em whatever they do. Seems to me that if you're espousing disapproval of somebody's actions, you've judged 'em and found 'em wanting.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Present the case for Satan my good man.

It would take a blind person to not see the condition of the world and it's many problems.
And the Bible fortold centuries ago that all the wickedness we see even more so now, is from Satan knowing he has only a short time left.
You obviously don't see that and no matter what I say will ever change your mind.
The catch for you is if you ever did admit that there is a Devil then you'd have to admit there is a God and that seems to be beyond you.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
I'm no theologian but as I read it Christ's view would be that it's not your place to judge 'sinners' - that would be god's job. You're supposed to love 'em whatever they do. Seems to me that if you're espousing disapproval of somebody's actions, you've judged 'em and found 'em wanting.

Your right, we are not to judge. But when God condemns something like murder for example, would you associate with someone that "practices" murder? Would you associate with a practicing thief or a practicing drunkard?
What a person does is between them and God but Jesus and the apostles made it very clear to not associate with evil doers. The congregations were to remove such people from their midst.
But there are examples to of Jesus accepting ones who had practiced such things but had stopped.
For some reason many like yourself miss that point. There is a major differance between having done something wrong in God's eyes in the past and turning away from that and someone who is still doing that sin willfully as in living a certian life style daily.

Ephesians 2:1-5 (New International Reader's Version)


1 You were living in your sins and lawless ways. But in fact you were dead. 2 You used to live as sinners when you followed the ways of this world. You served the one who rules over the spiritual forces of evil. He is the spirit who is now at work in those who don't obey God.
3 At one time we all lived among them. We tried to satisfy what our sinful nature wanted to do. We followed its longings and thoughts. God was angry with us and everyone else because of the kind of people we were.

4 But God loves us deeply. He is full of mercy. 5 So he gave us new life because of what Christ has done. He gave us life even when we were dead in sin. God's grace has saved you.

Originally posted by galveston75
Your right, we are not to judge. But when God condemns something like murder for example, would you associate with someone that "practices" murder? Would you associate with a practicing thief or a practicing drunkard?
What a person does is between them and God but Jesus and the apostles made it very clear to not associate with evil doers. The congrega ...[text shortened]... Christ has done. He gave us life even when we were dead in sin. God's grace has saved you.

It seems to me that you are treating the sinner as the sin there. As I said, I'm no student of theology, but where in the bible does Jesus exhort one to shun evil-doers? And how is the sinner ever to learn from the example of christian behaviour if they are immediately castigated and shunned by these paragons of virtue the moment they fall into evil ways? Surely it would be more in keeping with Jesus' teachings to forgive the sinner again and again, until eventually the scales fall from said sinner's eyes?

For some reason many like yourself miss that point.

Perhaps the point is not so much missed as disagreed with. Do you mean that your interpretation of the bible teaches you that only the good and those sinners who are repentant are to be given the benefit of the other cheek? I feel that it may be you who are missing the point, but then, I'm hardly a card-carrying christian, so what would I know.

As for your bible quotes, I don't see that these back up your point at all. Quite the contrary in fact - '...God loves us deeply. He is full of mercy.' - You seem to be arguing that this mercy should be denied to an unrepentant sinner.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
It seems to me that you are treating the sinner as the sin there. As I said, I'm no student of theology, but where in the bible does Jesus exhort one to shun evil-doers? And how is the sinner ever to learn from the example of christian behaviour if they are immediately castigated and shunned by these paragons of virtue the moment they fall into evi ...[text shortened]... rcy.' - You seem to be arguing that this mercy should be denied to an unrepentant sinner.

You make some very good points, which most Christians are likely to agree with. But you are talking to a brick wall. Galveston is a JW. They routinely shun members for a host of petty 'offences', like celebrating birthdays and Christmas. You can imagine what goes through their mind regarding gays !!

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
It seems to me that you are treating the sinner as the sin there. As I said, I'm no student of theology, but where in the bible does Jesus exhort one to shun evil-doers? And how is the sinner ever to learn from the example of christian behaviour if they are immediately castigated and shunned by these paragons of virtue the moment they fall into evi ...[text shortened]... rcy.' - You seem to be arguing that this mercy should be denied to an unrepentant sinner.

Ok...I appreciate your thought. But we should shun one who continues "practicing" a sin that is not only harmful to them but could and no doubt would be a bad influance on an individual or a congregation as a whole.
Again would you invite a practicing murderer into you home to live even if you were safe yourself? If you had children would it still be an option? What type of influance do you think this person would have on the welfare of your family?
And if you have a person who is a practicing homosexual but in his heart is looking for spiritual guidance and the possibility to change, then no we would not shun that person and would be very willing to help and teach them God's view of his problem. But...time would tell what they decide to do and if they were to pursist in that action, then the study and help with that problem would come to an end.
More info about the Wiynesses is that if a good standing member falls into something such as this and the congrgation finds out there is no immediate removal of that person. The elders would try very hard to reason with them from scripture and hopefully help them to refocus on God's views of such things.
No elder is looking or wanting anyone to be removed from the congregations and if forgiveness is warranted it will come.
Let me ask you, do you feel the actual act of homosexuality is wrong?