1. Standard membergalveston75
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    31 Jul '10 14:07
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    It seems to me that you are treating the sinner as the sin there. As I said, I'm no student of theology, but where in the bible does Jesus exhort one to shun evil-doers? And how is the sinner ever to learn from the example of christian behaviour if they are immediately castigated and shunned by these paragons of virtue the moment they fall into evi ...[text shortened]... rcy.' - You seem to be arguing that this mercy should be denied to an unrepentant sinner.
    1 Corinthians 5:9-13 (New International Version)

    9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
    11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
    12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[a]
  2. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    31 Jul '10 14:29
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Ok...I appreciate your thought. But we should shun one who continues "practicing" a sin that is not only harmful to them but could and no doubt would be a bad influance on an individual or a congregation as a whole.
    Again would you invite a practicing murderer into you home to live even if you were safe yourself? If you had children would it still be ...[text shortened]... ranted it will come.
    Let me ask you, do you feel the actual act of homosexuality is wrong?
    But we should shun one who continues "practicing" a sin that is not only harmful to them but could and no doubt would be a bad influance on an individual or a congregation as a whole

    If you say so, but it doesn't seem a a very constructive solution, and as far as I can gather is contrary to Jesus' teachings.

    Again would you invite a practicing murderer into you home to live even if you were safe yourself? If you had children would it still be an option? What type of influance do you think this person would have on the welfare of your family?

    A practising murderer!? What, like an on-the-run serial killer? No! That would be crazy! I'd certainly be interested to hear his point of view though. On the other hand, there are plenty people who have committed murder under the aegis of government action who are unrepentant and with whom I would be entirely happy to associate.

    And if you have a person who is a practicing homosexual but in his heart is looking for spiritual guidance and the possibility to change, then no we would not shun that person and would be very willing to help and teach them God's view of his problem

    Again, despite the OT scripture on the subject, I find it hard to believe Jesus would have considered homosexuality to be sinful per se, based on his teachings of universal brotherhood, unconditional love and unreserved forgiveness.

    Let me ask you, do you feel the actual act of homosexuality is wrong?

    No. But I do think that belief in divisive doctrine is.
  3. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    31 Jul '10 14:38
    Originally posted by galveston75
    1 Corinthians 5:9-13 (New International Version)

    9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
    11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with any ...[text shortened]... judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[a]
    Again, please excuse my ignorance, but isn't Corinthians written by Paul, and not by Jesus? Does it not seem to you that Paul and Jesus had very different agendas?
  4. Standard membergalveston75
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    31 Jul '10 15:03
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    Again, please excuse my ignorance, but isn't Corinthians written by Paul, and not by Jesus? Does it not seem to you that Paul and Jesus had very different agendas?
    2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
    16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,


    If this part of the Bible was not from God then it wouldn't be there....
  5. Standard membergalveston75
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    31 Jul '10 15:061 edit
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    [b]But we should shun one who continues "practicing" a sin that is not only harmful to them but could and no doubt would be a bad influance on an individual or a congregation as a whole

    If you say so, but it doesn't seem a a very constructive solution, and as far as I can gather is contrary to Jesus' teachings.

    Again would you invite a of homosexuality is wrong?

    No. But I do think that belief in divisive doctrine is.[/b]
    FORNICATION
    Illicit sex relations outside of Scriptural marriage. The Hebrew verb zanah and its related forms convey the idea of harlotry, immoral intercourse, fornication, or prostitution. (Ge 38:24; Ex 34:16; Ho 1:2; Le 19:29) The Greek word translated “fornication” is pornea. Regarding the meanings of poneia, B. F. Westcott in his book Saint Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians (1906, p. 76) says: “This is a general term for all unlawful intercourse, (I) adultery: Hos. ii. 2, 4 (LXX.); Matt. v. 32; xix. 9; (2) unlawful marriage, I Cor. v. I; (3) fornication, the common sense as here [Eph 5:3].” Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (revised by F. W. Gingrich and F. Danker, 1979, p. 693) defines porneia as “prostitution, unchastity, fornication, of every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse.” Porneia is understood to involve the grossly immoral use of the genital organ(s) of at least one human; also there must have been two or more parties (including another consenting human or a beast), whether of the same sex or the opposite sex. (Jude 7) The unlawful act of a rapist is fornication, but, of course, that does not make the person who is forcibly raped also a fornicator.
    When God performed the first human marriage he said: “That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh.” (Ge 2:24) Here the standard set for man and woman was monogamy, and promiscuous sex relationship was ruled out. Also, no divorce and remarriage to another was anticipated.—See DIVORCE.
    In patriarchal society God’s faithful servants hated fornication, whether between single, engaged, or married persons, and it was considered a sin against God.—Ge 34:1, 2, 6, 7, 31; 38:24-26; 39:7-9.

    So how can the act of homosexuality not fall under this subject of fornication?
  6. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    31 Jul '10 15:10
    Originally posted by galveston75
    2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
    16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,


    If this part of the Bible was not from God then it wouldn't be there....
    You have my sympathy. It must be pretty much impossible to follow the teachings of Jesus if your religion forces you to accept this.
  7. Standard membergalveston75
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    31 Jul '10 15:12
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    You have my sympathy. It must be pretty much impossible to follow the teachings of Jesus if your religion forces you to accept this.
    Accept what? The Bible?
  8. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    31 Jul '10 15:28
    Originally posted by galveston75
    FORNICATION
    Illicit sex relations outside of Scriptural marriage. The Hebrew verb zanah and its related forms convey the idea of harlotry, immoral intercourse, fornication, or prostitution. (Ge 38:24; Ex 34:16; Ho 1:2; Le 19:29) The Greek word translated “fornication” is pornea. Regarding the meanings of poneia, B. F. Westcott in his book Saint Paul’s E ...[text shortened]... -26; 39:7-9.

    So how can the act of homosexuality not fall under this subject of fornication?
    You asked me if I thought it was wrong. You didn't ask me if I thought it was considered wrong according to biblical scripture. It seems to me that from a Christian point of view if your scripture promotes hatred and division among otherwise good people, then it is in opposition to the teachings of Jesus and it's value should therefore be reconsidered. It is, after all, called Christianity, not Bibleosity or Scriptureanity or Paulism.
  9. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    31 Jul '10 15:29
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Accept what? The Bible?
    Accept that all scripture is 'god-breathed'.
  10. Standard membergalveston75
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    31 Jul '10 15:43
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    You asked me if I thought it was wrong. You didn't ask me if I thought it was considered wrong according to biblical scripture. It seems to me that from a Christian point of view if your scripture promotes hatred and division among otherwise good people, then it is in opposition to the teachings of Jesus and it's value should therefore be reconsidered. It is, after all, called Christianity, not Bibleosity or Scriptureanity or Paulism.
    If a person has the correct understanding of what the scriptures are saying there is no hatred of that person while doing something wrong. You hate what they are doing wrong...not the person.
    But if a religion teaches hatred then that's the fruits that they congregation will produce.
    But no where in any discourse or book or anything the Witnesses have does it ever say to hate someone that is sinning.
    It seems you think you know what the Witnesses believe and sorry, hatred is not one of them.
    And how can dicipline or even the removal of someone that continues on a course of what God hates promote hate? I don't understand your reasoning.
    If you had a child that continued doing some serious wrong while under your roof, do you not have the right to correct him with love? If that does not work do you just give up and let him do what he wants to the harm of the family?
  11. Standard membergalveston75
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    31 Jul '10 15:43
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    Accept that all scripture is 'god-breathed'.
    So do you just pick and choose what sounds good to you and discard the rest?
  12. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    31 Jul '10 15:47
    Originally posted by galveston75
    So do you just pick and choose what sounds good to you and discard the rest?
    That certainly sounds better than swallowing the whole lot, yes. Why do you imagine god gave you your critical faculties if not to use them?
  13. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    31 Jul '10 15:53
    Originally posted by galveston75
    If a person has the correct understanding of what the scriptures are saying there is no hatred of that person while doing something wrong. You hate what they are doing wrong...not the person.
    But if a religion teaches hatred then that's the fruits that they congregation will produce.
    But no where in any discourse or book or anything the Witnesses hav ...[text shortened]... that does not work do you just give up and let him do what he wants to the harm of the family?
    It seems you think you know what the Witnesses believe and sorry, hatred is not one of them

    I do not claim to have any understanding of the beliefs of JWs. I thought we were talking about the bible, and it seemed to me that the quotes you picked from Corinthians encouraged hatred and division rather than love and forgiveness. And now you're telling me that God hates homosexuality? Honestly now, does that accord with the teachings of Jesus? Are JWs not christians at all then?
  14. Standard membergalveston75
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    31 Jul '10 15:591 edit
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    That certainly sounds better than swallowing the whole lot, yes. Why do you imagine god gave you your critical faculties if not to use them?
    Lol...So probably as times and views in the world change the scriptures you accept would change too.
  15. Standard membergalveston75
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    31 Jul '10 16:07
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    [b]It seems you think you know what the Witnesses believe and sorry, hatred is not one of them

    I do not claim to have any understanding of the beliefs of JWs. I thought we were talking about the bible, and it seemed to me that the quotes you picked from Corinthians encouraged hatred and division rather than love and forgiveness. And now you' ...[text shortened]... onestly now, does that accord with the teachings of Jesus? Are JWs not christians at all then?[/b]
    So in your view IF Jesus didn't say something was wrong even with all the evidence that he is in complete agreement with his Father on all things and the rest of the Bible condemns homosexuality, it's ok to live that life style because Jesus didn't specifically mention it? Wow....

    Perhaps this is your view of fornication which is what homosexuality is? Just curious if it is.

    Ephesians 4:17-19 (New International Version)
    17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking.
    18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.
    19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.
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