Originally posted by lucifershammer
If you've hardly given it a serious think, then perhaps you should not be too quick to judge people who have given it serious thought as lacking reason.

Sorry, I've always had a good BS filter. My grandmother used t take me to church, and indeed, I've been since. It scared me somewhat actually, those people were nuts. It was all about emotion for them, there was no reason or logic in what they did.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
An observer with even a hint of curiosity would take a look up to see whether there was any basis in the claim.

Do you check the wheel nuts and brake lines of your car every day? There is more chance of your brakes failing than the sky crashing down, yet I doubt you check them.

So, I'll check out the bible (again), if you check the sky and your wheel nuts for me, everyday.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
A more appropriate analogy would be someone dismissing global warming after looking up and observing a perfectly normal sky.

So, you Christians can see IR now? That's a new one on me!

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Sorry, I've always had a good BS filter. My grandmother used t take me to church, and indeed, I've been since. It scared me somewhat actually, those people were nuts. It was all about emotion for them, there was no reason or logic in what they did.

That's just your Grandmother's church. I think it's pretty rash and bigotted to paint all Christians as emotional, unreasonable nuts based on the limited negative experience you have. How did you come to the conclusion that it "was all about emotion" for them? And really, why is that such a bad thing?

Originally posted by darvlay
That's just your Grandmother's church. I think it's pretty rash and bigotted to paint all Christians as emotional, unreasonable nuts based on the limited negative experience you have. How did you come to the conclusion that it "was all about emotion" for them? And really, why is that such a bad thing?

Actually, that was a different church. However, none of the others were much better.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Actually, that was a different church. However, none of the others were much better.

How did you come to the conclusion that it "was all about emotion" for them? And really, why is that such a bad thing?

Originally posted by darvlay
How did you come to the conclusion that it "was all about emotion" for them? And really, why is that such a bad thing?

The one I saw about, ooo, 3 -4 years ago, they were doing all that freaking out during the singing thing. I mean, I thought for sure one of them was going to fall to the floor convulsing at any moment.

As for the "why is basing your decisions on polemic aand opinion bad" question, well, look at what happened in Nazi Germany, unless you really do think the Jews "stabbed Germany in the back" at the end of WWI.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
The one I saw about, ooo, 3 -4 years ago, they were doing all that freaking out during the singing thing. I mean, I thought for sure one of them was going to fall to the floor convulsing at any moment.

As for the "why is basing your decisions on polemic aand opinion bad" question, well, look at what happened in Nazi Germany, unless you really do think the Jews "stabbed Germany in the back" at the end of WWI.

It's amazing how both sides can play the Nazi card.

To judge by your post, you'd think that religious people are utterly devoid of life skills, making every decision on an emotional basis. Surely you can see how ridiculous a viewpoint like that is. They don't convulse at work.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Do you check the wheel nuts and brake lines of your car every day? There is more chance of your brakes failing than the sky crashing down, yet I doubt you check them.

So, I'll check out the bible (again), if you check the sky and your wheel nuts for me, everyday.

I didn't ask you check out the Bible again. I simply pointed that you've acted with the same lack of intellectual rigour you accuse Christians of lacking.

I don't check the wheel nuts of my car every day (actually, I haven't owned a car in a while) -- but I will if someone I have no cause to doubt tells me it's wobbling.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
So, you Christians can see IR now?

No - and you're not going to have God appear in a flash of light in your living room either.

You cannot "see" global warming with the naked eye; careful research and understanding is needed. Similarly, you can't "see" God without some application of faculties.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
It's amazing how both sides can play the Nazi card.

To judge by your post, you'd think that religious people are utterly devoid of life skills, making every decision on an emotional basis. Surely you can see how ridiculous a viewpoint like that is. They don't convulse at work.

My point is that when we allow pure emotion, rather than reason, control our actions, we end up in very dark places.

The Jews weren't responsible for Germany's defeat at the end of the 1st world war, but the propogandists, especially those in the extreme right wing (strangely enough the same position that fundamentalist christians normally exist too) had been telling Joe Q German that for 20 years, even before Hitler, and they already believed it before Hitler came to power. The rabid anti-semitism under Hitler was a reaction to an emotional appeal, not to logic or reason. People making decisions solely based upon emotion, rather than logic, is NOT as good thing.

Did you ever see "Borat"? What about the scene in the church in the American South? Didn't that scare you a bit? Those people had been whipped up into such a religious frenzy that if the minister had asked them to strap 50 pounds of semtex to their bodies, they'd have done it.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
No - and you're not going to have God appear in a flash of light in your living room either.

You cannot "see" global warming with the naked eye; careful research and understanding is needed. Similarly, you can't "see" God without some application of faculties.

So, in light of this, why do you dismiss Global Climate Change with such flippancy?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I didn't ask you check out the Bible again. I simply pointed that you've acted with the same lack of intellectual rigour you accuse Christians of lacking.

I don't check the wheel nuts of my car every day (actually, I haven't owned a car in a while) -- but I will if someone I have no cause to doubt tells me it's wobbling.

My point is likelihood. The sky is not going to crash down. It'd go against our entire understanding of physics, as well as everything we know from our own experiences. The chances of you train derailing on your way to work are much, much higher (especially in the UK), yet I doubt you give that a second thought, so why look up when someone says "the sky is falling"? Is it reflex? Is it because the cost of looking up is so low? Is it because there is the possibility that something is falling from the sky? Maybe all of those things, but the chance of the sky falling is precisely zero.

So, based on that premise, which we'll call the "why look at something which makes no logical sense" premise, remind me why I should consult your bible again?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
My point is that when we allow pure emotion, rather than reason, control our actions, we end up in very dark places.

Very true. I've had dark experiences with certain churches in my past. It's easy for charismatics to confuse zealous emotional frenzy with truly worshiping God "in spirit".

What is being overlooked is the fact that emotions themselves are "of the flesh" and not "of the spirit". Christians are supposed to "put to death the deeds of the flesh", yet some congregations are led into those 'very dark places' by following pure emotion. "So, my dear brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and don’t forbid speaking in tongues. But be sure that everything is done properly and in order" (1 Corinthians 14:39-40).

The human spirit, biblically speaking, is 'higher' than the human heart, and emotions should ideally be subject to the spirit rather than vice versa ('the spirit subject to flesh' is man's natural unregenerate state). However, the human spirit is also 'higher' than the human mind, and the mind should also ideally be subject to the spirit rather than vice versa. "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God—what is good and acceptable and perfect" (Romans 12:2).

The whole person--his mind, emotions, will, body, and strength--should ideally be subject to the spirit. Such is the goal of the Christian walk, to be like Christ. "you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength" (Mark 12:30).

My point is, even 'reason' can lead to 'very dark places', especially if it leads you away from the Truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Very true. I've had dark experiences with certain churches in my past. It's easy for charismatics to confuse zealous emotional frenzy with truly worshiping God "in spirit".

What is being overlooked is the fact that emotions themselves are "of the flesh" and not "of the spirit". Christians are supposed to "put to death the deeds of the flesh", yet s ...[text shortened]... if it leads you away from the Truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Yet you haven't shown that at all.

Show me a single example of the facts leading to any sort of atrocities, and i'll agree.