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10 Aug 15
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Originally posted by moonbusTo view the constellation of parameters as "fine tuned" to support life is to smuggle the conclusion into the premiss.
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Well, if that is the case, then I wonder what explanation of any scientific evidence used to confirm some hypothesis couldn't be criticized as "smuggling the conclusion into the premise."
10 Aug 15
Originally posted by sonshipThe phrase "fine tuning" presupposes intelligence, implicitly. The neutral expression should be that certain conditions are necessary to support life. Necessary conditions do not presuppose intelligence.
[b] To view the constellation of parameters as "fine tuned" to support life is to smuggle the conclusion into the premiss.
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Well, if that is the case, then I wonder what explanation of any scientific evidence used to confirm some hypothesis couldn't be criticized as "smuggling the conclusion into the premise."[/b]
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeNot true, from Adam on there were people who believed in God, everyone who was born
Actually, i do not think it is the case (or biblically supported) that God addresses 'those who believe in him' but rather reaches out to 'the righteous.'
Before Moses, there was no distinction between Jew and Gentile. God did not favor any particular nation or family, but only the righteous. Abel was approved because he was more righteous than hi ...[text shortened]... med that God had actually affected Abraham's free will? (Something Suzianne said God didn't do).
after the fall of man knew about God. When God flooded the world, those that stepped off
the Ark all believed and that was the whole world of people at that time, and when God
set apart Abram there was a distinction between peoples since God choose to do all the
work He had in mind through him.
Before Moses and after God has still been working with believers, there has never been
a time He has not. Atheist are really a new thing on the planet, and if scripture is true it
only shows how far the earth has fallen away from God, and how dark the minds of man
have become as they call this darkness being away from God light.
10 Aug 15
Originally posted by KellyJayAtheists are new to the planet?!
Atheist are really a new thing on the planet, and if scripture is true it
only shows how far the earth has fallen away from God, and how dark the minds of man
Diagoras of Melos (500 years before Christ) was known for his blasphemy and as the "first atheist" and the Cyrenaic philosopher Theodorus of Cyrene also denied that gods existed.
10 Aug 15
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeThey have been around for awhile yes, but still after the fall of man there were none and
Atheists are new to the planet?!
Diagoras of Melos (500 years before Christ) was known for his blasphemy and as the "first atheist" and the Cyrenaic philosopher Theodorus of Cyrene also denied that gods existed.
now there are some. I'm looking at the world the way scripture describes it as true, not as
those who looking at it think they know all there is to know about our history, and the
history of the universe itself.
The fact is still if God is real and there are those that believe without God there is life and
light, they are in the greatest of all darkness and know it not.
10 Aug 15
Originally posted by SuzianneOkay, so have given this a little thought....The Prosecution gives you, 'Adam and Eve.' (Who had no knowledge of God until he revealed himself to them).
Well sure, but those he has manifested to were already believers, their choice was already made through faith. Their free will choice was not hampered, it had already been made.
Surely, if God truly didn't want to hamper mankind's freewill, he never would have manifested himself and would have allowed Adam and Eve to find their own way to him under their own volition.
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeSurely, if God truly didn't want to hamper mankind's freewill, he never would have manifested himself and would have allowed Adam and Eve to find their own way to him under their own volition.
Okay, so have given this a little thought....The Prosecution gives you, 'Adam and Eve.' (Who had no knowledge of God until he revealed himself to them).
Surely, if God truly didn't want to hamper mankind's freewill, he never would have manifested himself and would have allowed Adam and Eve to find their own way to him under their own volition.
Well said. Actually, one of the problems with the libertarian free-will argument in this context is that our free will has been limited from the beginning, just by the nature of our existence—and certainly, forever-and-ever punishment (under a strictly retributive theory of divine “justice” ) is an ultimate crusher of “free will”.
The fact is that—aside from other logical problems with libertarian free will—God’s created human beings have had (existential) limited free will from the get-go (as part of God’s creation). The notion that God’s ultimate will for humans can be defeated by human “free will” is ludicrous—as St. Isaac the Syrian, for example, understood: “As a fountain that flows abundantly is not dammed by a handful of earth, so the mercy of the Creator is not vanquished by the wickedness of the creatures.”
11 Aug 15
Originally posted by moonbusThe necessary conditions for human life is that the universe be fine tuned. 😏
The phrase "fine tuning" presupposes intelligence, implicitly. The neutral expression should be that certain conditions are necessary to support life. Necessary conditions do not presuppose intelligence.
