1. Standard memberRajk999
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    25 Jul '14 12:272 edits
    I would be interested in hearing from any Christian out there who can reconcile the following two common Christian doctrines along with their supporting references in the Bible. The problem is that the doctrines state one thing and the references state another.

    1. Doctrine : Immortality of the Soul - The soul/spirit of man is eternal and cannot die.

    Reference : Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    Here the assumption is that if the soul returns to God then it must be immortal. But the Bible did not say that.

    Note: Christ states Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.. It is clear that there are souls which God will destroy rather than torment. The soul therefore can and will die.

    2. Doctrine : THe Lake of Fire = Eternal torment.

    Reference : And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.... And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:10-15 KJV)

    Note: Rev 20:10 states that the Devil, Beast and False Prophet are tormented in the lake of fire. Rev 20:15 says that others who are not worthy are cast into the lake of fire. The assumption is that the lake of fire which torments the 3 listed above also torments rather than destroys everyone else.

    Christians who have already tried and failed to explain this mismatch between what they believe and what the Bible says [like JosephW, Grampy Bobby and others], should refrain from commenting unless they have new evidence to add. Thanks.
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    25 Jul '14 20:15
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I would be interested in hearing from any Christian out there who can reconcile the following two common Christian doctrines along with their supporting references in the Bible. The problem is that the doctrines state one thing and the references state another.

    1. Doctrine : Immortality of the Soul - The soul/spirit of man is eternal and cannot die.

    Re ...[text shortened]... Bobby and others], should refrain from commenting unless they have new evidence to add. Thanks.
    On this we are aligned.
  3. Standard memberRajk999
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    25 Jul '14 20:44
    Originally posted by divegeester
    On this we are aligned.
    Glad to hear that.
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    25 Jul '14 21:16
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I would be interested in hearing from any Christian out there who can reconcile the following two common Christian doctrines along with their supporting references in the Bible. The problem is that the doctrines state one thing and the references state another.

    1. Doctrine : Immortality of the Soul - The soul/spirit of man is eternal and cannot die.

    Re ...[text shortened]... Bobby and others], should refrain from commenting unless they have new evidence to add. Thanks.
    Well you know the JW's agree on the soul but a question. If these are literally tormented forever, wouldn't that mean even in this terrible state, they are living forever thus are immortal?

    Here is the first hint of satans eventual end:

    14 Then Jehovah God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild animals of the field. On your belly you will go, and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you ( satan ) and the woman (God's kingdom) and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head ( death ), and you will strike him (Jesus ) in the heel. ( Jesus's death for 3 days )

    So if this lake of fire is literal it would actually preserve the life of those in it. And if this is literal, where is it located?
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    25 Jul '14 21:22
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Well you know the JW's agree on the soul but a question. If these are literally tormented forever, wouldn't that mean even in this terrible state, they are living forever thus are immortal?

    Here is the first hint of satans eventual end:

    14 Then Jehovah God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, you are the cursed one out of all the dom ...[text shortened]... it would actually preserve the life of those in it. And if this is literal, where is it located?
    Interesting; but the lake is referenced with the second death. How can death be an extension of life?
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    25 Jul '14 21:57
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Interesting; but the lake is referenced with the second death. How can death be an extension of life?
    It can't. The second death is actually total complete death without the prospect of ever being resurrected to life again or existing again. Fire in the bible always refers to compete distruction.

    Also isn't death and hades said to be thrown in there too? How can death and hades be tormented? It can't. Thus it simply shows these will be done away with or also destroyed forever.
  7. Standard memberRJHinds
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    26 Jul '14 01:095 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I would be interested in hearing from any Christian out there who can reconcile the following two common Christian doctrines along with their supporting references in the Bible. The problem is that the doctrines state one thing and the references state another.

    1. Doctrine : Immortality of the Soul - The soul/spirit of man is eternal and cannot die.

    Re ...[text shortened]... Bobby and others], should refrain from commenting unless they have new evidence to add. Thanks.
    “When the Son of Man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory. And before Him shall be gathered all nations, and He shall separate them one from another as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, ‘Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”


    (Matt. 25:31-34, 41, 46 KJV).


    Christ explains that everlasting fire—the lake of fire—was prepared for the “devil and his angels [demons].” In verse 46, Christ continues: “And these [disobedient individuals] shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” This verse shows that those judged unfit for eternal life will be thrown into the lake of fire.

    Those cast into the lake of fire will go through everlasting punishment by the torment of the second death.


    “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”


    (Revelation 21:8 KJV)

    The second death that is an everlasting destruction is apparently a contnuing destruction of torment forever and ever. It is not like the first death that stops at a point in time.

    Eternal life also continues forever and ever, it does not stop at a point in time like the first life with the first death.
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    26 Jul '14 02:02
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I would be interested in hearing from any Christian out there who can reconcile the following two common Christian doctrines along with their supporting references in the Bible. The problem is that the doctrines state one thing and the references state another.

    1. Doctrine : Immortality of the Soul - The soul/spirit of man is eternal and cannot die.

    Re ...[text shortened]... Bobby and others], should refrain from commenting unless they have new evidence to add. Thanks.
    For once I agree. I think Satan and demons will eventually burn up and become ashes. It just takes longer to burn spirit.
    I don't remember the passage, but it says Satan will be brought to ashes.
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    26 Jul '14 02:06
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    For once I agree. I think Satan and demons will eventually burn up and become ashes. It just takes longer to burn spirit.
    I don't remember the passage, but it says Satan will be brought to ashes.
    I found it...
    Ezek 28:18-19

    18 "You defiled your sanctuaries
    By the multitude of your iniquities,
    By the iniquity of your trading;
    Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
    It devoured you,
    And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
    In the sight of all who saw you.
    19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
    You have become a horror,
    And shall be no more forever."'"
    NKJV
  10. Standard memberRJHinds
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    26 Jul '14 05:175 edits
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    I found it...
    Ezek 28:18-19

    18 "You defiled your sanctuaries
    By the multitude of your iniquities,
    By the iniquity of your trading;
    Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
    It devoured you,
    And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
    In the sight of all who saw you.
    19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
    You have become a horror,
    And shall be no more forever."'"
    NKJV
    This is a metaphor speaking of the King of Tyre as if he were Satan. It is the physical that is turned to ashes. Below is an example of a metaphor about hell or the lake of fire from Christ:

    For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.

    “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.


    Mark 9:41-48 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    Here Christ speaks of hell or the lake of fire as a place where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
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    26 Jul '14 07:141 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    [quote] “When the Son of Man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory. And before Him shall be gathered all nations, and He shall separate them one from another as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall th ...[text shortened]... forever and ever, it does not stop at a point in time like the first life with the first death.
    So does the second death mean being dead or is it still being alive to be tortured by this fire?
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    26 Jul '14 08:01
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    [quote] “When the Son of Man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory. And before Him shall be gathered all nations, and He shall separate them one from another as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall th ...[text shortened]... forever and ever, it does not stop at a point in time like the first life with the first death.
    As an 'outside observer', nothing in what you have cited states that humans will be tortured forever.

    When someone is executed in countries still barbaric enough to have the death penalty, is that deprival of life a punishment?

    If so, is that punishment temporary or permanent?

    If you chuck a human into a lake of fire, will they die?

    Might a non-human, supernatural being, not die if chucked into a lake of fire?

    If someone dies, do they carry on existing?

    So the most natural reading of what you have posted is that humans are thrown into the lake of fire and, being human, die, and that some other supernatural beings do not.

    If God had meant it to mean something else which flies in the face of the natural meaning and context, he would surely have provided something more definitive? After all, it is pretty important to get this right, so if your interpretation is right, God was a pretty shoddy draughtsman.
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    26 Jul '14 08:02
    Originally posted by galveston75
    It can't. The second death is actually total complete death without the prospect of ever being resurrected to life again or existing again. Fire in the bible always refers to compete distruction.

    Also isn't death and hades said to be thrown in there too? How can death and hades be tormented? It can't. Thus it simply shows these will be done away with or also destroyed forever.
    Wow I think we agree on something. I believe that happened once before.
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    26 Jul '14 08:072 edits
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    It just takes longer to burn spirit.
    So much to ask, where do I start.

    But you said in another thread that you were a proponent of the eternal suffering doctrine, yes? Well if this fire is in eternity, there is no "time". Eternity is not the extension of time, it is the absence of it. So how can one thing take "longer" to burn than another, when there is no time?

    How does something spiritual (soul) get burnt by something temporal (fire and brimstone)?
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    26 Jul '14 08:10
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Wow I think we agree on something. I believe that happened once before.
    Who would have thunk it.....
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