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17 Sep 18
Originally posted by @romans1009One would think that after a while he would try a different approach. It's so blatantly obvious by now.
<dj2becker knows this full well ~ or he knows my stance, even if he doesn't agree with it - because he and I have discussed it at length in the past. The stuff he's said to me on this thread has mostly been him just fooling around in his trademark way.>
Translation: I’ve been busted and so will claim I already addressed this in the past.
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Originally posted by @fmfIn that case someone who feels bestiality and pedophilia are morally sound is not objectively wrong in their assessment, which means you allow for the fact that they are just as correct as you are in their assessment.
Morality is subjective. We are both sharing our personal opinions and perspectives on moral matters here. That's all.
17 Sep 18
Originally posted by @dj2beckerMorality is subjective. My moral sensibilities have it that sex with children is wrong.
In that case someone who feels bestiality and pedophilia are morally sound is not objectively wrong in their assessment, which means you allow for the fact that they are just as correct as you are in their assessment.
Luckily, all the countries I have lived in - and there have been a few - have laws that punish people who have sex with children and I've not come across one where, according to their laws, sex with children was perceived as morally sound or permissible.
Otherwise, well... it would be awful to live in such a country - maybe I'd stay and fight it alongside activists, or maybe I'd leave.
[For example, I am involved in working towards clearer. and more effectively implemented rights for women and children who are victims of domestic violence or trafficking. This is because of my moral compass and banding together with likeminded people to seek cultural change].
This feeling that it would be "awful" to live in a society where it was deemed permissible to have sex with children comes from my subjective moral compass, the one I absorbed from nature and nurture.
I welcome the legalization of homosexuality in India because I do not see homosexuality as being morally wrong in and of itself.
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17 Sep 18
Originally posted by @fmfYou are not making any sense. Why would you stay and fight for something that you only believe to be relatively true? What you are saying would make sense if you believed in moral absolutes. I have a feeling you do actually believe in moral absolutes but you can't admit it because it would undermine your atheism.
Morality is subjective. My moral sensibilities have it that sex with children is wrong.
Luckily, all the countries I have lived in - and there have been a few - have laws that punish people who have sex with children and I've not come across one where, according to their laws, sex with children was perceived as morally sound or permissible.
Otherwise, w ...[text shortened]... mosexuality in India because I do not see homosexuality as being morally wrong in and of itself.
17 Sep 18
Originally posted by @dj2beckerBecause I am a moral agent with a moral compass.
You are not making any sense. Why would you stay and fight for something that you only believe to be relatively true?
17 Sep 18
Originally posted by @dj2beckerWe have discussed your use of the words "absolutes" and "objective" many times before. My stance has not changed.
You are not making any sense. Why would you stay and fight for something that you only believe to be relatively true? What you are saying would make sense if you believed in moral absolutes. I have a feeling you do actually believe in moral absolutes but you can't admit it because it would undermine your atheism.
17 Sep 18
Originally posted by @dj2beckerI cannot think of any circumstances when I would rape a child. But I believe my moral compass is subjective nevertheless.
What you are saying would make sense if you believed in moral absolutes.
17 Sep 18
Originally posted by @dj2beckerThe same goes for everybody.
The needle of your 'moral compass' within a paradigm of moral relativity points wherever the wind blows.
17 Sep 18
dj2becker: The needle of your 'moral compass' within a paradigm of moral relativity points wherever the wind blows.It's not "self-defeating" at all. The "wind" that blows us is culture, point in history, parents, upbringing, religion, lack of religion, philosophy, lack of philosophy, politics, family, neighbours, school, community, nation, relatives, colleagues, personal experiences, travel, tribulations, triumphs, and so on, in an uncountable number of varying subjective hodge-podges which are part of our unique individual identities and employed in order to navigate our ways through life as best we can. There's multi-faceted human nature in there too, of course. That's what the "wind" is. It blows all of us in our separate and unique ways. We are more drawn to those we see eye to eye with; we have conflict with those we don't. We are all individuals with moral compasses shaped by nature and nurture.
FMF: The same goes for everybody.
Originally posted by @dj2becker
And that's exactly why any moral argument within a paradigm of moral relativity is self defeating. Maybe the penny will eventually drop.
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Originally posted by @fmfThat's obviously how your atheism will force you to view the matter. If God doesn't exist there is no ultimate right and wrong and there is no single correct answer to a moral question, which means that even if you think bestiality is wrong, yours is simply an opinion and the opinion that it is ok is equally valid to yours. It's like having to solve a math problem where any answer you give is correct. Shoot wherever you want and whatever you hit you call it the target. What a way to live...
It's not "self-defeating" at all. The "wind" that blows us is culture, point in history, parents, upbringing, religion, lack of religion, philosophy, lack of philosophy, politics, family, neighbours, school, community, nation, relatives, colleagues, personal experiences, travel, tribulations, triumphs, and so on, in an uncountable number of varying subjective h ...[text shortened]... t with those we don't. We are all individuals with moral compasses shaped by nature and nurture.
Originally posted by @dj2beckerYour beliefs are opinions too. Labelling them "objective" may do something for you, psychologically speaking, but it does not alter the essential source, nature and application - and the subjectivelty - of the moral standards that you use, which are the same for you as they are for me.
That's obviously how your atheism will force you to view the matter. If God doesn't exist there is no ultimate right and wrong and there is no single correct answer to a moral question, which means that even if you think bestiality is wrong, yours is simply an opinion and the opinion that it is ok is equally valid to yours. It's like having to solve a mat ...[text shortened]... rect. Shoot wherever you want and whatever you hit you call it the target. What a way to live...
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17 Sep 18
Originally posted by @fmfWould you agree that your opinion that moral absolutes don't exist and that morals are relative could be wrong if it turns out that God does exist?
Your beliefs are opinions too. Labelling them "objective" may do something for you, psychologically speaking, but it does not alter the essential source, nature and application - and the subjectivelty - of the moral standards that you use, which are the same for you as they are for me.