Originally posted by @secondsonWe both have moral sensibilities that are the product of both nature and nurture. A big part of my nurture was being a Christian - all the way into middle age, in fact - so that has clearly influenced my moral compass. We absorb things from our human environment - family, community, culture - and that goes for you just as it goes for me. It's where beliefs about what is right and wrong come from.
You're projecting on me the only thing you know. You are the product of the nurture you've received through your physical senses and no more.
Originally posted by @secondsonYour religion is Christianity. Stuff about "God's grace" and being "born again" are religious beliefs.
I on the other hand have experienced God's grace and am born again. Not a thing about that experience was religious at all.
Originally posted by @great-king-ratLOL, then you should have specified this in your original post! Instead, you just asked me, and when you are talking to me, I assume you are asking my views, and not specifically asking for some secularized version of my views.
What the hell man??
Your post that prompted me to respond started with the phrase "From a secular perspective, from a perspective where we are just arguing for some public concept of moral norms", which was the only reason I joined in in the first place.
And then you respond to me by arguing from the christian point of view and you even throw t ...[text shortened]... s and argue from a secular point of view?
If you can't do that, why did you even bring it up?
Next time try to actually post with some modicum of detail and do not throw a hissy fit when you don't get exactly what you wanted. I'm not a mind reader.
But, for the sake of engaging you:
1) Masturbation is immoral?
2) Anal sex is immoral?
3) Oral sex is immoral?
4) SM is immoral?
5) Using a condom is immoral?
6) Having sex *just for fun* is immoral?
7) Having sex for any other reason than procreation is immoral?
8) People who've raised a bunch of children to adults and decide to have no more children are immoral when they stil ...[text shortened]... mmoral?
10) People who don't want to have children, but still have sex are immoral?
And why?
(1) Mb would be something of a gray area. It'd depend greatly on what level of objectification you were engaged in, and whether or not it was having literally harmful results to yourself. There's very good reasons why we could say that adult entertainment, etc., has a net negative impact on the society, and for similar reasons this could have a similarly negative impact on the society. Yet, it is minor, and many view it as some sort of unavoidable facet of modern life.
I'll just say that I wouldn't argue that it is immoral ever as some individual instance, but rather, that it can have a negative impact in many circumstnaces, and should not be normalized.
(2) Um, I'm not exactly sure. Probably it has a net negative social impact if it becomes a trend. But, sure, the answer would be similar to #1.
(3-5) No.
(6) JUST for fun? In the context of just running about and doing whatever you want, outside of marriage, yes, that is immoral. It'll have a net negative impact to create a culture of viewing sexuality as something that is simply for pleasure and recreation.
(7-10) No.
Sexuality should exist within acceptable outlets, right.
See? The answer isn't different much at all from the original.
Christian morality is basically the morality that is good for the totality of the world, but with different nuances and some different concepts therein. This is because our God is a God whose motives for us are not irrational in the least. Of course, man's "rational" systems are utterly inferior to God, and God is fundamentally beyond our rationality (meta-rational, if you will), but we can still look at God's word, and look at the reason of man, and see that it is present and proper.
You know, some of this goes back to Justin Martyr and his concept of logos spermatikos.
The Logos itself is part of who God is. Rationality itself is an emanation of God. While this is going a bit far and I don't Ave the theological chops to say it is a position that we must conclude from Christianity, it is a possible conclusion.
-Removed-His outlook was the whole 'baby Jesus is spying on you as you masturbate/have sex with someone and/or give or receive oral sex and baby Jesus doesn't like it one little bit unless it is "Biblical" or it has been endorsed by one of those magazines his corporation had its members traipse around door to door and give out for free' school of thought.
- Joined
- 01 Oct 04
- Moves
- 12095
Originally posted by @wolfgang59Shifting the burden of proof already? Find a mammal specie apart from humans that does.
Do it?
If you mean homosexuality I challenge you to find a
mammal species which does not have homosexual behaviour.
Originally posted by @fmfFMF is so far divorced from the concept of values and objective truth that it is beyond him to imagine someone actually having sexual ethics.
robbie carrobie was another one who wrapped up his sexual hang-ups and inhibitions in pretentious blather about supernatural stuff.
For him, everyone wants to live in Indonesia and get handies from the grills around Block M or they're just lying to themselves.
What a way to live.
Originally posted by @dj2beckerAnd how about:
Shifting the burden of proof already? Find a mammal specie apart from humans that does.
Lions kill rival juvenile males even if they're little pups,and chimpanzee practice cannibalism and rape, and they're the closest genetic species to us.
So uhhhhhhh let's square that with our morality.
But that's the fun thing, Becker, these people literally don't know what is meant by "natural" when it comes to debate.
Being obtuse is literally their debate tactic, lol.
Originally posted by @philokaliaI don't think there's anything wrong with my morals, my values, my "sexual ethics", and things that might be perceived as objective truths. Do you think there is?
FMF is so far divorced from the concept of values and objective truth that it is beyond him to imagine someone actually having sexual ethics.
Originally posted by @philokaliaYou think, for me "everyone wants to live in Indonesia and get handjobs from girls around Blok M [shopping mall in Jakarta]"?
For [FMF], everyone wants to live in Indonesia and get handies from the grills around Block M or they're just lying to themselves. What a way to live.
What on earth are you on about?
Originally posted by @philokaliaI don't have any problem imagining people having different ethics when it comes to sexual matters. Indeed, I am fully aware and knowledgeable about them. Your sexual ethics are different from mine. This, if anything, increases my ability to "imagine" others having different ethics, and does not make understanding these differences "beyond" me at all.
...it is beyond [FMF] to imagine someone actually having sexual ethics.
Originally posted by @philokaliaI don't know about lions and chimpanzees and homosexuality, but humans are increasingly more tolerant of the significant minority among us who are homosexual and seeing homosexual sex as being immoral, in and of itself. I welcome this. You and dj2becker can witter on about the animal kingdom all you want, it doesn't affect the morality of homosexuality in humans.
Lions kill rival juvenile males even if they're little pups,and chimpanzee practice cannibalism and rape, and they're the closest genetic species to us. So uhhhhhhh let's square that with our morality.